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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:23 AM
Original message
Cars stolen in US used in (Iraq) suicide attacks
How bizzare is this ???

Cars stolen in US used in suicide attacks
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/cars-stolen-in-us-used...

The FBI's counterterrorism unit has launched a broad investigation of US-based theft rings after discovering some vehicles used in deadly car bombings in Iraq, including attacks that killed US troops and Iraqi civilians, were probably stolen in the United States, according to senior US Government officials.
...
The inquiry began after coalition troops raided a Falluja bomb factory last November and found a Texas-registered four-wheel-drive being prepared for a bombing mission. Investigators said there were several other cases where vehicles evidently stolen in the US wound up in Syria or other Middle Eastern countries and ultimately in the hands of Iraqi insurgent groups, including al-Qaeda in Iraq.



How much does it cost to ship a stolen car to the middle east? Wouldn't it me more cost effective for Al Qaeda to simply steal cars from Saudi Arabia, Syria or even Egypt? There is something rotten here.

Consider this when combined with stories like these...

Britain "apologizes" for terrorist act in Basra
Rescue of SAS men who were planning to place bombs in Basra City Square
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArti...
Also mentiones the American soldiers disguised in Arab dress as they tried to blow up a booby-trapped car in the middle of a residential area in western Baghdad.

IRA Bombs Killing Britishers In Iraq
http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=3&theme=...

Is this or is this not getting too twilight zone?

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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. This can only mean one thing. The US is behind these.
Insurgent, terrurrrrrrrrist, of whatever you want to call them wouldn't bring cars from the US. You'd only do that if you needed to make sure they couldn't be traced IN IRAQ.

----
peep today's new comic
http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neillisst
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Why would coalition troops blow the cover then?
Doesn't add up.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Iran/Contra ring a bell?
Maybe the Military and FBI are unaware of the operation. Perhaps it's being run by the CIA or another agency or just a group of Bush Cronies?

:Shrug:
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julianer Donating Member (964 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
25. Negroponte n/t
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LibertyorDeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #25
49. You got it in one
Negroponte
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
23. Troops wouldn't be involved. Contractors thru Halliburton would.
see what I'm saying?

they do this off the books, like all the shady stuff.

Daddy Bush is a spook from the 1950s, and he's got a shadow network all over the world, especially over there.

------
meanwhile, this is junior trying to think on his own
http://www.webcomicsnation.com/neillisst
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
26. Generally how it would work
is you've got these guys who are essentially capitalists, mercenaries, who are over there. Arms smugglers, etc. Often involved with Blackwater, DynCorp or other mercenary groups, paid by taxpayers. These guys are not heros, as is shown by past exposes that reveal the keeping of child sex slaves:
http://www.insightmag.com/main.cfm/include/detail/story... etc.
These guys get paid more for longer war, and justify "black ops" like bombing civilians as part of a "psyop" to turn popular opinion against insurgents. But this is all bullshit, its all about extending the war, as you can see by the fact the iraq war may be the first overseas war america fought with itself and lost.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. That makes no sense whatsoever.
Why would the US bring stolen cars to Iraq to blow themselves up? THEY could swipe them from anyplace in the Middle East at much less cost and risk.

Cars stolen in America can be sold in African and Asian countries much easier than in America, because the VINs aren't traced. Entrepenuership at it's best.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. we know the american cars are there...
so which is more likely:
1) Iraqi insurgents are sneaking into america, stealing cars, smuggling them back.
2) things are not as they seem.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
51. Neither
It's more likely that some of the thousands upon thousands of cars stolen in America each year are winding up being smuggled overseas and sold in nations where they aren't likely to be traced as stolen.

It's more likely, also, that if our government was blowing up people in foreign lands they would avoid all links to our nation, not bring their own cars to carry the bombs. It's even more likely that they would frame someone else for the crime, not implicate themselves.

Why does it seem likely to you that our government would steal cars, smuggle them to the Middle East, then use them in suicide bombings when we have a giant military there able to grab any car off the street that they want?

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
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converted_democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #1
41. Does anyone know if the "American cars" that have been used are
Edited on Mon Oct-17-05 08:02 AM by converted_democrat
newer cars, say with GPS in them??? Anyone know??

--on edit-- If they are cars with GPS in them they could be tracked. Even if the GPS was removed (not a real easy task), you could figure out where they were last before they were removed. (Like say they take them to a common garage to remove the GPS, you could in theory figure out where the garage is.) If they didn't remove the GPS than you could track the cars from start to finish and see what locations they have in common. Most likely one would be able to tell who is behind this just by looking at what locations the cars have in common from start to finish.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #41
52. If they had GPS, they would have been located long before they reached
the Middle East, or even before they left America.
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clichemoth Donating Member (92 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
45. Not necessarily true.
Car theft rings are international and the US is considered the best place to snag a set of wheels (especially luxury cars, SUVs, etc.) for sale in the Middle East or former Soviet Union. Now, of course the CIA could have their finger in that pie, although there's no proof of that because they haven't been caught. And while some car bombs have apparently been planted by Americans or Brits, the actual insurgents probably have built a few of their own as well.

It is possible that these cars were purchased from gangsters without CIA ties and exploded by genuine Iraqi insurgents.

I think I know how someone caught on to this. It's doubtful that they check the VIN of all vehicles that just exploded because the fact that the vehicle just exploded would be way more important than where it came from. But what if some soldier was examining the vehicle, noticed something unique, and said "Hey! This was MY car! How'd it get here?"

Stranger things have happened...

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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #45
54. Do you memorize your VINs?
The military investigates every bomb with the intention of determining where it came from. It is SOP to find the VINs of a vehicle used in a crime and run the VINs. So it's not odd at all that they would discover the car was stolen from the US, or elsewhere.

A soldier recognizing his own obliterated car in a smoking hole halfway around the world would be remarkable indeed. That would be as wild as, say, George HW Bush's son's friend's brother shooting the president on the same day that the son and friend were having dinner together.
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:27 AM
Response to Original message
2. OMG They have an auto-transporter!
this makes no sense. I can see "intellegence" people bombing their allies. I can see importing bombs. But not shipping cars from Texas. I wonder who has the contract for that?
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Oversea Visitor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Sorry
this is a highly sensitive top secret no bid contract.
You dont need to know how we spend your taxes just pay your taxes now go back to sleep.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. It's just totally bizarre
It seems like it would make more sense to steal the cars locally even in an Intelligence Op.

And it is quite mind boggling to consider that Al Q is stealing cars in Houston and shipping them to Iraq.... All under the noses of DHS, FBI and local police.
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mark11727 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
19. Halliburton?
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
3. and the US is pissed because Syria isn't controlling its borders?
haha
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The Traveler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
4. There is no reason
why insurgents would go through the difficulty and expense of importing stolen American cars for this purpose. There is a rat in the room, judging from the odor ...
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jim3775 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
9. Just an FYI: Michel Chossudovsky (globalresearch.ca) is a loon
Here is an article of his on the "New World Order's" "climate change weapons"

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO201A.html

I'm not attacking your post but some people will dismiss yor claim outright if you source globalresearch.ca, it's like using rense.com as your source.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Thanks for the Global Research Info.
I was unaware of the reputation. It was a handy link to the brit soldiers story which can be found elsewhere :) and is probably known by everyone here.

Peace
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dutchdemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #9
21. FYI - I don't see anything crazy about Chossudovsky
Edited on Mon Oct-17-05 01:43 AM by dutchdemocrat
Nor about the article which is augmented with quotes from Brzezinski amongst a few other reputable sources.

Lumping an economics professor from the University of Ottawa with Rense, the pathetic anti-semite, is a cheap shot and completely unfair. As is your libelous attack.

There are many very well researched article by Chossudovsky and many others from globalresearch.ca which have proven to be excellent resources on specialised information.

Try reading well written articles by
Dr. Leonard Horowitz or Prof. Raymond K Kent for example.

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Tower Donating Member (171 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #9
24. Self edit because I don't mean to be rude to anyone here- but I agree that
Edited on Mon Oct-17-05 01:54 AM by Tower
globalresearch is not a reliable source.

Globalresearch has had some really loony stuff on it in the past.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 04:25 AM
Response to Reply #9
36. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
10. Cars stolen in Texas often wind up in Mexico
Perhaps there's a cheaper way to ship them from Central America to the Middle East. Stealing reduces overhead, so maybe there's an international shipping ring that sells these cars in Africa and the Middle East.

Shipping stolen American cars to Mexico also reduces the chances that the VINs will be tracked. I imagine shipping them to the Middle East reduces it even more.

So, you steal a hundred American cars, drive them to Mexico, then ship them out on some cheap freighter, and sell them to a dealer in North Africa. Do that a few times a month, and there are a lot of stolen cars around the world.
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Attack Mexico! Get your car back -- new recruiting ad campaign?
Edited on Mon Oct-17-05 12:49 AM by Bozita
Seems appropriate for the age of personal responsibility. If your car's been stolen, you really need to enlist.



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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:46 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Maybe the Minuteman should turn their guns the other way? nt
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Bozita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. possibly a violation of NAFTA -- If we can export jobs, why not ...
... stolen cars?

Which is worse?

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Beam Me Up Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:41 AM
Response to Original message
11. Original was Boston Globe story:
You have to register but here is the search string to the archived story from 10/2/05:

http://search.boston.com/index.jsp?title=c&summary=c&by...

And direct link to story:
http://tinyurl.com/773ve

I agree with post #1: This is very suspiscious.
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punpirate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
12. Makes no sense...
... it's the very long way around the problem. Want a stolen vehicle? Go to Jordan or Yemen or Saudi Arabia or Turkey or East Africa and steal one. Toyotas, Nissans, other 4x4s are ubiquitous in the region.

The other presumption in this is that the vehicles were stolen for the purpose of being used in bombings. That doesn't necessarily follow. There's probably a huge black market for stolen vehicles in Iraq right now, with so many people out of work and the economy in chaos. There's probably someone in Panama shipping many, many cars and trucks out to the Middle East, and some end up in the hands of bombers.
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randr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
14. Have we met the enemy?
And are he us?
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file83 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
20. Nice news catch, PsychoDad. My internal compass says this is huge...
...just like when back in Sept 2003 we first found out about the Valerie Plame/White House CIA leak.

This is smoke. Question though, is there fire? How could there not be?

From the article, the "cover story" is that the motivation for terrorists to do this is that the vehicles would blend in better with American convoys. Bullshit. Some "No Such Agency" or someone's dirty little op just got caught. They are going to go into cover up mode big time.

I fear this story will go the way of the insider short sell trading on Airline stocks during 9/11. *poof*....and it's gone.
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lvx35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 03:07 AM
Response to Reply #20
28. Its been pretty something I've been wondering about for
Edited on Mon Oct-17-05 03:08 AM by lvx35
some time:

SAN FRANCISCO - A woman who founded a humanitarian group to aid civilian casualties in Iraq has died in a car bombing in Baghdad, officials said Sunday.

Marla Ruzicka, founder of Campaign for Innocent Victims in Conflict, died Saturday in the blast, which also killed an Iraqi and another foreigner, officials said. She had been in Iraq conducting door-to-door surveys trying to determine the number of civilian casualties in the country.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1385646/posts
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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
22. The cars probably change hands a lot between theft and boom
There has been quite the international trade in stolen cars for a while now. There's a ready supply of vehicles here, demand in other countries where there are customers but little regulation, and profit to be made connecting the two. Then at some point the intrepid insurgents were going to turn to this sales network for their expendable vehicle needs.

It's really not strange. Drugs, arms, art, women all get shipped around the world for profit; cars too.
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DaveColorado Donating Member (498 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. Perhaps the thieves who steal them in the US don't know or care where they
end up?

Perhaps the thieves who steal them here, sell them to middle men in Asia, Africa, and the Mid East, who then sell them to terrorists?

I don't know how you can automatically jump to the conclusion that there is a greater conspiracy at work, however this needs to be fully investigated.

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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. My question would be...
How much would these cars cost to ship overseas? I imagine that freight on a car would be fairly high, not to mention risks with customs, which would increase the price.

What's the point of a costly stolen car when one can be had locally for a lot less?

The only upside in this type of trade I can see is if these are luxury cars being stolen and sold in a foreign market for less than the same car would cost locally.

But wouldn't it be ridiculous for an resistance movement or a terror organization to purchase stolen foreign luxury cars to use as explosive delivery systems when they could probably steal the same type of car in Kuwait, Syria or Saudi Arabia? Where are they getting the money to do this?

Something smells here.... That's all I'm saying.
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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #33
43. It may be just commerce, not conspiracy
Edited on Mon Oct-17-05 07:53 AM by Ellen Forradalom
"How much would these cars cost to ship overseas? I imagine that freight on a car would be fairly high, not to mention risks with customs, which would increase the price."

I don't know. But it might be less than we think. Things get shipped all over the place.

"What's the point of a costly stolen car when one can be had locally for a lot less? "

Maybe both happen. It's entirely possible it goes something like this:

Car stolen in U.S. by specialized ring; or sold to ring;
Driven to departure port;
Joins transport to somewhere in Middle East;
Changes hands through brokers until at final destination;
Sold to someone who wants nice car, has cash, won't pay retail, doesn't need 50,000 mile warranty;
Car stolen locally from that person;
Rigged with bomb;
Blown up.


"The only upside in this type of trade I can see is if these are luxury cars being stolen and sold in a foreign market for less than the same car would cost locally."

That's the trade I've heard of. The news report cited an SUV. Not a Mercedes but not a 1982 rusted-out Toyotoa Corolla, either.

All I'm saying is don't rush to attribute to conspiracy what is best explained by commerce.


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Ellen Forradalom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #29
40. No conspiracy at all.
It's called commerce.

There's some folks who have figured out how to sell money stealing & reselling cars. And others who needs cars to blow up at less than full retail.
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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #22
34. That could be.
The cars are passing through many hands before arriving at their final use, I could see that.

Just that when combined with the other stories of clandestine involvement by the UK and US, it seems, on the surface, questionable.

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PsychoDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
30. Another interesting thread in the same vein.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Arms "Smugglers" in Afghanistan. American and British.

Maybe if the people of Iraq and Afghanistan can just keep their heads down, We will kill off our own troops....
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merbex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
31. By creating an unstable environment and KEEPING US THERE
TO DEAL WITH IT

You have perpetual War in a region some don't want us to leave
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 03:52 AM
Response to Original message
32. Liberal commie pinkos I bet
You know you'll be hearing that on Rush within a week.

Yes, this is little twilight zone for sure.
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IntravenousDemilo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 04:17 AM
Response to Original message
35. Not only that...
...but a car is pretty big. How would you move something that big halfway across the world without it being noticed?
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banana republican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 04:47 AM
Response to Original message
37. $1900 for a 40 foot container to the Mid-east.

You should be able to fit 3 cars in an unmodified container; and maybe six small ones in a container modified to carry them stacked on top of each other...

$300 / car bomb....

And that is shipping from the US let alone panama..



http://www.kinternational.com/lowrates.htm
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nashville_brook Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #37
50. good info! -- i'm thinking this is an opportunity -- lots of money
changing hands = lots of opportunity to trail the money.

lets say there's already gangs involved in stealing cars (not too hard to believe).

they sell to highest bidder (who might that be in this case?)

this bidder is the one who ships the merchandise (probably from mexico -- prolly someone already involved in arms shipments)

someone on the other end picks up the merch and delivers it to the "insurgents."

_______________________

that's at least 4 points of contact that wouldn't exist if the cars were obtained in the mideast.
this is a GOOD THING. this gives the motivated investigator lots more contacts.

and it sounds very IRAN/CONTRA!
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
38. Whoever is doing the bombing wants the vehicle to look right
If you want to get inside the Green Zone, the vehicle has to look like the types driven by military personnel or contractors. If everyone from company X is driving Jeeps, and you want to place your charge near company X, you want a Jeep. If everyone from company Y is driving Chevys, you want a Chevy.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
39. "probably" stolen. The headline seems to be missing that qualifier
And, as we all know, no U.S. cars are actually available overseas. They must all be stolen.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
42. I bet the whole damn bomb is built over here and then shipped over
I still say since the two British SAS guys got caught dresses like Iraqis the car bombings of civilians went to . I bet the Iraqis noticed.

Don
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
44. Now add this in to the equation: Some Iraq suicide bombers 'forced'
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/07/26/iraq.bombers.... /

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. has evidence that some suicide bombers in Iraq may have been forced against their will to carry out attack missions.

A military official with the U.S. Central Command tells CNN that in one case after an attack, troops found a body with a foot tied with a rope inside a vehicle.

The official says there also is evidence of some individuals having their entire family held by extremists who then force them into suicide car bomb attacks.

ABC News reported the U.S. claims in an interview aired Friday.

In some attacks, suspected bombers have run from their cars and come to U.S. forces, officials said.

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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
46. Homeland Hilarities
Though I see nothing funny about this.

How did they get there and by whom? Sadly, I can just imagine.
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AuntiBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
47. More like the "Outer-Limits!"
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 09:07 AM
Response to Original message
48. on it's own, doesn't mean much
but... combined with the other stories, something stinks.

And I would think the shipping rate quoted above assumes shipping something above the board, not smuggling stolen property. But I don't know.
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greygandalf Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-17-05 01:17 PM
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53. How do the cars get there? $10k question n/t
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