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Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:39 PM

 

Karen Beck of MoveOn says she will call the police on #Occupy if their actions upset her

Occupy factions, divided in tactics, to start anew

"We are going to do our actions peacefully, not getting arrested, and if anyone wants to fight or get really aggressive or start breaking things, they are not part of us," said Karen Beck, an organizer for Occupy demonstrators from the Livermore-San Ramon area - who prefer to call themselves 99 Percenters to distance themselves from factions open to violence.

'First we will try to ignore them, then we'll out-chant them," Beck said. "And if that doesn't work, we will call the police on them.'

snip

Some Oakland city leaders said they were outraged at the prospect of further Occupy disruptions, and that this time around, the city should not tolerate them."

----

Firstly, the "oakland city leaders" have been LYING and LYING and LYING to make Occupy go away; their lies are legion and can all be roundly disproven.

Secondly, the "oakland city leaders" are actually their local 1%, who from the beginning have called for the "oakland mayor, police chief, and city council" to forcefully end Occupy.

Thirdly, anyone who hasn't been following closely enough to know the truth about what has occurred in Oakland and across the nation, who has been living in that area and has neither paid attention nor taken the time to figure it out, and who hasn't even been involved for the SIX MONTHS Occupy have been acting for positive change, being brutalized, arrested, jailed, demonized, LIED about...then steps in and believes they can call the shots and threaten to call the cops on anything she doesn't like...is an utter enemy to the true Change we are creating, and is guilty of entitlement and hubris nearly beyond comprehension. Is working for real non-Change in the face of Change. Will be utterly ineffective against the 1% for an unwillingness to actually get in their business. Truly cheapens what we have done, been doing, and will not stop. Is a lickspittle lackey for the powers that be. Has no real-life experience that the cops are a tool of the 1%; you don't call them, you fear them, and work to change THAT status quo. You somehow missed six months of beatings, pepper-spray, tear-gas, batons, fists, rubber bullets, lawlessness... That the Feds through the DHS organized the multiple-city attacks upon Occupy, and that the majority of mayors who created genuine, repeated police riots and brutality, are Democrats, some like Jean Quan, so-called "progressive" Democrats. That all of this must be Questioned and Changed to create a better world. That they send the riot police over and over and over to provoke a response they can use to demonize us? WE ARE PEACEFUL. Remember "Change"? It's up to US. Not them. You would betray us. You would betray the "Change" promised to us and and not delivered!

Anyone like the above IS THE PROBLEM. moveon, is this your official stance, your official ignorance of the facts? You'd call the cops to protect your entitlement (place in the corrupt system) and to fight real change? Yours truly, one Occupier who does not speak for all Occupy or any single Occupation but only for himself, who prizes Democracy over the bad members of the democratic party and those who do not question them, who reinforce them. (Those who signed the NDAA indefinite detention bill, the NDRP martial law bill, HR347 (which is an anti-Occupy bill making it a Federal offense to protest and mic-check a representative or candidate in certain locations...it's not Democracy if they don't listen!), extended the "patriot act" which empowers the DHS which is cracking down on Occupy, those who bailed out Wall Street and the banks, those who won't do anything to stop and punish the banks for allowing the known foreclosure fraud machine to continue running, because Wall Street are interested in buying up all of the empty homes to rent for profit, who do NOTHING to stop police riots and brutality and continuing arrests upon those expressing their 1st Amendment RIGHTS, and it goes on and on and on...)

Mercilessly pressure representatives to do the right thing! Always!


Look at the BONES, man!:

Today the City of Oakland Officially Went Insane.

"The city adminstration, with the full approval of the police, is intent on provoking violent behavior from Occupy Oakland, regardless of any consideration for the safety of the general public or the fact that people might be injured, or even killed. Thanks to the incredibly slanted coverage of such incidents by the mainstream media, they now view every potential for violent confrontation as a chance for a big PR victory. If it bleeds, it leads, and City Hall applauds."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/06/1062345/-Today-the-City-of-Oakland-Officially-Went-Insane-|



Oakland's 1% to "mayor" Jean Quan: "The protest has been allowed to run its course. Now it's time to focus on jobs and the economic restoration of our city. It's time for bold leadership and forceful action, not unending social experimentation. We call upon the Oakland City Council and the Mayor of Oakland to step up and provide cohesive, common sense leadership—before it really is too late." (Bold text is my edit.)

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2011/11/08/11.8.11.oakland_letter_fin-mayor.pdf



Lake Merritt/Uptown District Association calls on Mayor to forcefully end Occupy Oakland

"The Oakland Metro Chamber of Commerce has been quite vocal with their mantra of 'OCCUPY OAKLAND ENCAMPMENT MUST GO! OCCUPY OAKLAND ENCAMPMENT MUST GO! OCCUPY OAKLAND ENCAMPMENT MUST GO!' as they twist the arms of elected officials and try to engender popular support for their position. Now today, the Lake Merritt/Uptown District (business) Association, claiming to be a part of the '99%', has piled on, delivering a letter to the Mayor calling for 'forceful action' to end the 'social experimentation' of Occupy Oakland."

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2011/11/08/18698285.php



Oakland officials knew crime had dropped 19% since the camp was formed:

"When Jordan received an update that crime was actually down 19 percent in the last week of October, he wrote an email to one of Mayor Jean Quan's advisers.

'Not sure how you want to share this good news,' he wrote. 'It may be counter to our statement that the Occupy movement is negatively impacting crime in Oakland.'"

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/emails-exchanged-between-oakland-opd-reveal-tensio/nGMkF/



DAILY KOS ARE COMPILING REPORTS OF TORTURE AND HUMILIATION FROM THE J28 ARRESTS:

"Just got out of Santa Rita Jail last night the prisoners from the Oakland Commune were being denied medications (some had seizures) while the guards said they didnt care if they died. Some people were brutally beaten. The put tear gas in the vents of my cell twice. They were keeping people without restrooms forcing them to shit and piss themselves or puke all over and stay in the same area...."

Women arrestees were forced to give urine samples in front of male officers, ostensibly for pregnancy testing."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/01/31/1060354/-Breaking:-Oakland-Arrestees-Tortured



Yes, The 99% Spring Is A Fraud

"With hindsight gained by googling “MoveOn” and “co-opt” after the fact, I can’t claim that nobody tried to warn me. Many websites with left and even liberal politics had said in so many words, 'Be wary of this organization called the 99% Spring. It is a Trojan horse for the Democrats.' I just didn’t read that anywhere in a timely fashion. I’ve had a lot of stuff on my plate lately. That’s my excuse. And in my ignorance, I responded to some spam about 'nonviolent direct action training' organized by MoveOn and got invited to this 99% Spring thing on April 10 at the Goddard Riverside Community Center in Manhattan. Somebody even called me all the way from San Francisco to make sure I was a sincere seeker on the left and would be attending, along with 120,000 others in training sessions around the country.

Which I did. The meeting was a few blocks from where I live. The spam said it was 'inspired by Occupy Wall Street.' I wasn’t sure what that meant, but I was vaguely hoping that whatever the 99% Spring was, it would start a chapter of Occupy Wall Street on the Upper West Side, conveniently near my abode, and agitate for the Democrats and MoveOn to move left.

The first clue that my evening might go otherwise was the sign-up table, where there were a bunch of Obama buttons for sale and one sign-up sheet for the oddly named Community Free Democrats (are they free of community?), which is the local Democratic clubhouse. That killed the 'inspired by Occupy Wall Street' vibe right there. No piles of literature from a zillion different groups, as there had been in Zuccotti Park. No animated arguments among Marxists, anarchists, progressives, punks, engaged Buddhists, anti-war libertarians and what have you. Just Obama buttons, which didn’t appear to be selling."

http://www.thiscantbehappening.net/node/1126



New Occupy Crackdown Documents Just Obtained by the PCJF

"U.S. Park Police were communicating step by step, as they took action in regard to Occupy DC, with the Secret Service, DHS, and other police agencies as well as personnel affiliated with LEO.gov, the FBI's nationally integrated network and alert system involving all aspects of civilian law enforcement, intelligence agencies and the military. As its website states, 'LEO supports the FBI's ten priorities by providing cost-effective, time-critical national alerts and information sharing to public safety, law enforcement, antiterrorism and intelligence agencies in support of the Global War on Terrorism.'"

http://www.justiceonline.org/commentary/nps-production.html



Caught on Camera: 10 Shockingly Violent Police Assaults on Occupy Protesters

http://www.alternet.org/story/153134/caught_on_camera:_10_shockingly_violent_police_assaults_on_occupy_protesters/



At least 6,924 Occupiers have been arrested thus far.

http://occupyarrests.moonfruit.com/



"Proposed statement of autonomy

Occupy Los Angeles is a movement for the people by the people. We are not a political party, we are not a business, we are not an organization; we are a movement of people standing in solidarity with one another across the world.

Our movement is comprised of independent individuals who take autonomous action to advance the movement every day. We encourage and respect this autonomous activity, but do not support those who claim to speak for Occupy LA unless requested to do so by the General Assembly. To all, we say: speak with us, not for us.

We welcome all who wish to engage in participatory, horizontal, transparent democracy and collective decision making. We welcome and respect dissent. We encourage the participation of individuals, groups and organizations who wish to support and engage with our movement knowing that doing so will mean questioning their own institutional frameworks and hierarchies, and integrating our principles into their modes of action.

We stand in solidarity with all other HORIZONTAL AND AUTONOMOUS 'Occupy' movements and communities, but also recognize and respect their autonomy, as we hope they will ours.

We want to emphasize that Occupy LA is not, and never has been, affiliated with any established political party, candidate or organization as this would directly contravene our spirit of independence. We strive to challenge the rigid, oppressive structures sustaining the inherent inequalities created by our current socioeconomic political reality. We seek to empower communities to share their collective resources and subvert laws and institutions which place profit above people." -(Bold edits are mine.)

http://losangelesga.net/2012/01/statement-of-autonomy/


140 replies, 16413 views

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Arrow 140 replies Author Time Post
Reply Karen Beck of MoveOn says she will call the police on #Occupy if their actions upset her (Original post)
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 OP
ForgoTheConsequence Apr 2012 #1
niyad Apr 2012 #3
arcane1 Apr 2012 #6
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #36
DocMac Apr 2012 #95
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #48
HiPointDem Apr 2012 #140
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #5
SammyWinstonJack Apr 2012 #9
U4ikLefty Apr 2012 #127
sabrina 1 Apr 2012 #28
girl gone mad Apr 2012 #41
sabrina 1 Apr 2012 #45
pasto76 Apr 2012 #60
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #65
sabrina 1 Apr 2012 #66
JoeyT Apr 2012 #91
Zalatix Apr 2012 #92
limpyhobbler Apr 2012 #130
Leftist Agitator Apr 2012 #103
limpyhobbler Apr 2012 #131
Recursion Apr 2012 #108
crunch60 Apr 2012 #135
Purveyor Apr 2012 #110
arcane1 Apr 2012 #2
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #7
arcane1 Apr 2012 #10
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #14
arcane1 Apr 2012 #26
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #44
arcane1 Apr 2012 #51
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #57
sabrina 1 Apr 2012 #29
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #46
sabrina 1 Apr 2012 #58
nobodyspecial Apr 2012 #12
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #15
nobodyspecial Apr 2012 #21
zeemike Apr 2012 #24
Autumn Apr 2012 #4
MuseRider Apr 2012 #8
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #18
MuseRider Apr 2012 #79
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #86
MuseRider Apr 2012 #102
MuseRider Apr 2012 #107
lonestarnot Apr 2012 #104
zeemike Apr 2012 #11
nobodyspecial Apr 2012 #13
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #16
nobodyspecial Apr 2012 #23
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #34
nobodyspecial Apr 2012 #50
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #59
U4ikLefty Apr 2012 #129
zeemike Apr 2012 #27
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #31
zeemike Apr 2012 #38
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #42
sabrina 1 Apr 2012 #30
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #56
pasto76 Apr 2012 #61
zeemike Apr 2012 #64
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #67
crunch60 Apr 2012 #134
qb Apr 2012 #17
cali Apr 2012 #19
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #22
sabrina 1 Apr 2012 #33
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #20
rhett o rick Apr 2012 #47
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #49
rhett o rick Apr 2012 #84
Zalatix Apr 2012 #89
U4ikLefty Apr 2012 #96
rhett o rick Apr 2012 #106
starroute Apr 2012 #112
rhett o rick Apr 2012 #115
starroute Apr 2012 #122
U4ikLefty Apr 2012 #125
rhett o rick Apr 2012 #126
U4ikLefty Apr 2012 #128
rhett o rick Apr 2012 #138
U4ikLefty Apr 2012 #139
EFerrari Apr 2012 #25
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #40
EFerrari Apr 2012 #62
rhett o rick Apr 2012 #116
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #52
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #32
sabrina 1 Apr 2012 #37
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #54
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #35
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #39
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #43
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #53
randome Apr 2012 #71
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #74
unionworks Apr 2012 #55
varelse Apr 2012 #63
solarman350 Apr 2012 #68
limpyhobbler Apr 2012 #132
starroute Apr 2012 #69
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #72
EFerrari Apr 2012 #73
sabrina 1 Apr 2012 #75
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #85
starroute Apr 2012 #88
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #87
starroute Apr 2012 #90
Fire Walk With Me Apr 2012 #94
EmeraldCityGrl Apr 2012 #117
rhett o rick Apr 2012 #101
starroute Apr 2012 #109
randome Apr 2012 #111
EFerrari Apr 2012 #113
girl gone mad Apr 2012 #114
randome Apr 2012 #118
rhett o rick Apr 2012 #120
starroute Apr 2012 #124
limpyhobbler Apr 2012 #133
rhett o rick Apr 2012 #137
Odin2005 Apr 2012 #70
rhett o rick Apr 2012 #119
deaniac21 Apr 2012 #76
sabrina 1 Apr 2012 #78
Luminous Animal Apr 2012 #80
KG Apr 2012 #77
mmonk Apr 2012 #81
Rex Apr 2012 #82
applegrove Apr 2012 #83
donheld Apr 2012 #93
Marr Apr 2012 #97
Egalitarian Thug Apr 2012 #98
Mc Mike Apr 2012 #99
lunatica Apr 2012 #100
lonestarnot Apr 2012 #105
LiberalLovinLug Apr 2012 #121
Zorra Apr 2012 #123
limpyhobbler Apr 2012 #136

Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:47 PM

1. Good.

"if anyone wants to fight or get really aggressive or start breaking things"

Do you disagree with this? Do you think it helps the cause to pick fights and smash windows? I don't.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #1)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:50 PM

3. and do you think those actions were all committed by Occupy? most of us don't

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Response to niyad (Reply #3)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:56 PM

6. I believe some were, some were not. Ultimately it makes no difference

Anyone breaking shit and starting trouble is an asshole, and no matter whose side they are on, they make the rest of us look bad.

Whether the troublemakers come from within or without, the only smart thing to do is distance one's self from them.

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #6)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:57 PM

36. Banksters stole $15 trillion and we're arguing about undercover cops causing damage.

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #36)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 02:59 AM

95. They don't want to know!...

it might take every human outside their comfort zone.

Burn it all and start over!

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #6)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:11 PM

48. And the press and MoveOn would like to keep that 1% "violent" protesters (inflitrated and instigated

by representatives of the 1%; i.e., the police) front and center in the news.

Tens of thousands of been peacefully protesting and non-violently engaged direct action for 6 months and all we can remember is that someone burned the damn flag.

How about instead of gnawing down to the bone the news of the few petty crimes perpetrated by Occupyers at demonstrations, we keep first and foremost the violence of the police, the politicians that condone that violence, and eschew getting caught up in false narratives pushed by the 1%.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #48)

Sat Apr 28, 2012, 12:00 AM

140. they always want to associate protest & violence, so that the population will. be too afraid

 

of violence to protest, associate protest with violent assholes, etc.

it's been fairly effective.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #1)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:53 PM

5. We are a peaceful movement being demonized by the MSM and the 1%.

 

Occupy are peaceful. Oakland officials and the national MSM are lying about Occupy to demonize it. This is orchestrated through the DHS at the Fed level. It has all been proven.

This entire article on the subject is excellent, well-worth the time spent:

"A crowd of several hundred quickly swelled to a couple thousand, as Occupy Oakland attempted to occupy the vacant Kaiser Convention Center. The goal was to use it as an indoor base for Occupy Oakland—a place to have General Assemblies and meetings, share food and get shelter for the winter. This was in keeping with what Occupy Oakland has always done, a goal that is simple, though not simple enough for the mainstream media to understand and honestly report. As in Argentina, Oaxaca, or Egypt, when society makes life unlivable for some and miserable for others, we will come together, decide what we need to do to meet our own needs in a directly democratic fashion, and do it. It is not surprising that people meeting their own needs outside of the control of the various forces that maintain the existing social order is going to be attacked. When people attempting to fill their own needs and the needs of the community are seen as socially unacceptable, the need for an entirely different social order becomes abundantly clear. From the diverse group of people who came out to take that space on Saturday, that understanding is not just held by a small group of militants. Despite the fact that the city government is run by corporate profiteers and liberal charlatans, and the federally coordinated police apparatus often looks far less intelligent than we usually give them credit for, the State knows the threat that exists in Oakland. They are responding accordingly. Saturday's attacks are part of an ongoing counter-insurgency campaign to attempt to strip the movement of its substantial legitimacy, to intimidate, to harass, to divide, to contain, to co-opt, and to eventually destroy Occupy Oakland. The lines in this ongoing conflict are clear. The City's overwhelming use of force and mass arrests, firing less-than-lethal weapons into marches with many children, the violent beatings, and the trumped-up charges in response to a peaceful attempt to make social use out of an unused building makes the State's position clear. What is not clear is who will eventually win."

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/01/31/occupy-oakland-and-state-repression/

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #5)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:07 PM

9. +1000

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #5)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:24 AM

127. It is the old "good protester, bad protester" lie that is being repeated here.

very sad to see the MSM spin being regurgitated by Duers.

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Response to ForgoTheConsequence (Reply #1)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:48 PM

28. No, the Occupy Movement is against violence, and all she has done is confirm the suspicions

if many, many people about Move-on. They are a money making machine and I guess they don't want any competition.

I dropped them long ago, after the bailed on the 2004 election and sold out for money and access. They have accomplished nothing, that I recall, other than send out ridiculous petitions.

OWS has accomplished more in just six months, without asking people for money every time, than Move-on has in its entire existence.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #28)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:01 PM

41. MoveOn wanted to usurp Occupy, but they've been unsuccessful.

Guess they'll be trying a new approach now.

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Response to girl gone mad (Reply #41)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:07 PM

45. They saw it as a threat to their financial situation. They were right. People had left Move-on

over the years, because they accomplished nothing that I can recall.

OWS has accomplished so much more than they ever did, they are way too mainstream and have become part of t he problem themselves in their effort to keep their access, just like the MSM. Their main job seems to be to keep Liberals in line. OWS destroyed any chance they had, if they ever had any, of doing that. And if they become totally ineffective they could lose their funding I suppose.

They are old and now so absorbed into the mainstream they are part of the problem as this clearly demonstrates.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #28)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:01 PM

60. wondering what OWS has accomplished

they accomplished what?

a lot of you in this thread sound like tea partiers. People on the OWS side of the police line vandalized and assaulted police. "They did it first" doesnt count, or matter. Obviously. Only thing that matters is what YOU did/do.

The second any of you supported those actions is when you lost your credibility. Sorry none of you can operate like adults. Going against The Machine requires some leadership and organization. This "we have no leader" is the biggest problem. Go to a OWS FB page or forum, and I cant even find discussions about economic injustice or social equality. All I see are ludicrous conspiracy theories: zionist this, new world order that. Its ridiculous, and it's made you a laughing stock.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #60)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:13 PM

65. Grandpa! Is that you?

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #60)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:18 PM

66. Your post makes no sense to me. Supported WHAT actions?

'cannot operate like adults'? Can you give an example of what you are talking about, because this has zero to do with OWS's actions, I will assume you are confused about the topic.

As to what OWS has accomplished? Seriously, you do not know? How strange!

Edited to add that you appear to be calling DUers 'tea-baggers' or did I read that wrong?

If you want to talk about OWS, then please do, but your comment in no way relates to OWS so I wouldn't know where to begin.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #60)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 12:55 AM

91. Well, if nothing else

they showed exactly what police are to a whole bunch of people that would have never grasped it.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #60)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 01:49 AM

92. Oh jeez, not that old "Occupy has accomplished nothing" bullshit again.

 

Occupy has spread WORLDWIDE and they've totally raised global awareness about the Plutocracy. They're saving people from foreclosures and they're also gaining support from unions.

When was the last time you heard much about the deficit? Occupy made that bullshit go away. Where do you think the phrase "99%" came from? It's now everywhere. Guess why.

And... no leadership? Good! That means there's no way the Government can take the whole movement out with a single drone strike.

Seriously, you're the one who sounds like a Tea Partier.

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Response to Zalatix (Reply #92)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 01:27 AM

130. Yeah OWS spread the 99% meme.



This 99%Movement is sponsored by labor, environmental groups, anti-war groups, etc. That might never have happened if OWS didn't get it started. That seems like a big success for Occupy IMO.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #60)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 10:39 AM

103. "This "we have no leader" is the biggest problem."

 

Only a great fool would fail to understand the inestimable strength of a leaderless resistance.

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Response to Leftist Agitator (Reply #103)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 01:32 AM

131. Leaderless resistance - has it's advantages and disadvantages.

I'm wondering, could it actually be good to have to some extent two separate but overlapping groups, one more organized and one less organized.

Or maybe not 2 groups, but multiple groups, all with their own varying degrees of organization and leadership? That could have have different advantages and disadvantages I guess...

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #60)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 01:12 PM

108. Easy: Eric Cantor now makes speeches about income inequality

That was literally inconceivable pre-OWS

(And I'm pretty critical of OWS for a lot of things, but this idea that they "accomplished nothing" is ludicrous.)

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #60)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 03:21 AM

135. Hey, your avatar, interesting, black bloc perhaps? Your comments sound a wee bit fishy. Hmmm..

 

Like your doing a lecture for the tea baggers or some other nefarious group.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #28)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 03:27 PM

110. What you said. +1 eom

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:50 PM

2. "if anyone wants to fight or get really aggressive or start breaking things"...

then they deserve to be shunned.

I support the Occupy movement, but I have little patience for people who like to break stuff and run around with anarchy flags. I'll take democracy any day

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #2)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:00 PM

7. Who says they weren't police? Look at the number of lies coming out of Oakland

 

"officials" and know that they'll do anything to demonize the movement.

That people believe the MSM and DHS stories is frightening.

Evidence of police intrusion into Occupy Oakland:



Black Bloc in Oakland try to cause damage; at 1:37 see Occupy Oakland protesters FIGHT the vandals.



From the above video page on youtube:

"Occupy Oakland protesters fight back against the black bloc vandals committing crimes on Nov 2nd. When you ask "Where were the cops that day?" I say "There they are in black". I hope I'm wrong, but we'll see when we arrest some of them. The Canadians in 2007 were able to prove their black bloc vandals were undercover police."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=19928


Cops in Los Angeles dressed as protesters at the 2007 MacArthur Park police riot, beating people up to demonize the protesters; watch how the riot police walk RIGHT PAST THEM. Please set the counter to 25:00 and go:



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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #7)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:07 PM

10. Exactly, it doesn't matter if they're police or not, Karen Beck's statement still stands

Indeed, if 100% of all incidents can be traced to the police, then her statement stands even more so: They are not part of us.


The fact that police infiltration exists is all the more reason to shun the trouble makers

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #10)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:17 PM

14. Yes, but remembering what police have done to protesters in Oakland,

 

makes her statement all the more abhorrent!

-Veteran Scott Olsen, shot in the face by a bean-bag "less-lethal" shotgun at close range, very nearly dies, still has a speech impediment.

-Journalist Scott Campbell, shot with a rubber bullet for just being there. Police lied about the use of rubber bullets.

-Veteran Kayvan Sabeghi had his spleen lacerated by cops for just attempting to go home; was denied medical attention for 18 hours and nearly died.

And you remember the videos of tear gas attacks, police using flash-bangs upon those who attempted to help the fallen Scott Olsen (police also lied about their use of flash-bangs, saying there were protesters using M-80s against cops)...police penning in crowds of protesters, demanding they disperse, then arresting them for not dispersing (yes, there is video..)...

"I'll call the cops..." Well, the cops are the problem. She is nuts, and owes an apology larger than life! Because the cops are lawless and almost killed peaceful protesters without provocation!

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #14)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:43 PM

26. I think we're actually in agreement here

The cops can't be trusted. The cops will infiltrate and start shit. They look for excuses to brutally crack down. We definitely agree there.

The notion of calling the cops on troublemakers is rather silly, we agree there too.

The police hope for a broken shop window or a thrown bottle or some other provocation as an excuse to get rough with the crowd. If necessary, they will invent an excuse.

Thus, anyone doing those things is an asshole

Calling the cops won't accomplish anything, but I'm starting to feel more and more that directly confronting/interrupting/exposing/shaming/ostracizing is the way to go. What are they gonna do, blow their cover by charging us with obstructing a police officer?

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #26)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:06 PM

44. Gotcha, agreed!

 

We have been amazingly peaceful considering what has been thrown at us!

Cheers.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #44)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:20 PM

51. "We have been amazingly peaceful considering what has been thrown at us! "

Well said!

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #26)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:38 PM

57. The cops will stand right there while "black bloc" commit vandalism and do nothing...

But they've no problem with shooting rubber bullets and tear gas into a peaceful crowd. And then, in turn, the local corporate media will happily report that the protest turned "violent."

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Response to arcane1 (Reply #10)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:50 PM

29. No, her statement is a lie. But not surprising considering it's Move-on. It's just that they

are usually more careful about slamming people. I'm glad she finally revealed what they are all about.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #29)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:07 PM

46. Everything which touches Occupy seems to get challenged

 

and if corrupt, begins to be revealed. It is an amazing process.

Peace!

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #46)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:44 PM

58. Yes, that's true. People have been concerned about Move-on for quite a while, even before

OWS. But now, this leaves little doubt that their fears were well founded, without them doing anything at all.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #7)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:14 PM

12. I don't understand your reasoning

What difference does it make? And if they *are* cops, it increases the chances that the extent of the filtration can be documented. Arrest records are public documents. Make note and take pics of those arrested and then use the FOIA to demand to see the records of all those arrested.

If they are cops, you have proved your case. If not, I guess you lost the argument. But, I guess that's the point. Leave the question up in the air so you can disavow any negative actions without actually proving it.

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #12)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:20 PM

15. Yeah, YOU go down to your local precinct and ask to file a police report:

 

Please watch all of this, it includes police threats of attack by shooting! I'm sorry, but IT IS NOT SAFE to work with the police. Not if you Occupy. Not if you question them.

&list=PLB0BAF5BA8F6BC23D

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #15)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:35 PM

21. I didn't say file. I said request records.

Are there any journalists in your area? They do specialize in this sort of stuff.

On edit: Please reread my post. You are not filing a report against cops or accusing them of anything. You request records of those arrested and see if it matches names of cops. And, like I said, get your local newspaper working on it.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #7)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:39 PM

24. Some awesome videos there thanks...n/t

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 05:52 PM

4. Yes, it's time to MoveOn from the stolen election of 2000

That worked out so fucking well.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:04 PM

8. Keep being who you are.

You knew this was going to happen, that more mainstream leaders would come in and try to change you. Keep on with what you are doing. There will always be disrupters in any group this large or "organized" in the manner Occupy has been, we all should know that by now. You do what you can to get rid of them but keep on with who you are.

Let her have her little group but go on with your own. If they take it over it is done. If anyone takes it from the people it is over so just keep up what you are doing and let her do her thing. It will be ineffective if taken over by MoveOn, you will remain the group that is working for all of us. I used to be a big fan of MoveOn, not so much anymore.

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Response to MuseRider (Reply #8)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:26 PM

18. Thank you.

 

It is chilling to see how effective the MSM lies have been against Occupy.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #18)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 09:52 PM

79. It has always been like that.

Always. We have seen it over and over and over again. I have high hopes for Occupy. Let it slide. You all are doing a great thing.

Did my time many years ago and am not in the position to be able to do much of this now or I would drag my old ass somewhere there was a movement.

The one in my city sounded off right away that they did not intend to cause trouble and would cooperate with whatever they were told, said with their hands in the air to journalists, not even cops. They gave up the game before it started. I think nobody bothered after that but I live in a city where nobody does much of anything. Some of us do it all, same people and we are tired.

You have my heart and my respect and my gratitude for all you all are doing and risking. Stay true and don't worry about all the crap, as hard as that is, don't let it get to you or you will lose your perspective. You all are right and you all have started a dialog that would never have happened without you. Let the wall come, smash yourself up against it and then climb that fucker (sorry about the language, we have a big rally here tomorrow for something else and I am quite angry at the moment). I have more hope now than I have had in many years because of this movement and the effect it has already had.

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Response to MuseRider (Reply #79)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 12:09 AM

86. Thank you so very much! You are valued!

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #86)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 10:12 AM

102. Been there.

Understand.

Have been threatened with arrest but never arrested or even touched by the police, although it did get dicey last summer when they would not allow our flag poles on the Cap grounds during our rally. If Dan Choi had not been there I think they would have arrested us at our cars.

Next rally, about a month later, 3 of us carried the American Flag, the Kansas Flag and the Rainbow Flag from down the block and across the street and made a grand entrance right in front of the Governors office. The 3 of us agreed to be arrested but they never said a word after the stink we made from the rally before and the fact that the story had been covered nationally making Brownback look like the little dictator that he is and embarrassing him.

We continue to push and they push back but nothing like what you all are going through.

Keep it up. They are fighting you, they will not win.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #86)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 12:03 PM

107. One more little thing to add from the outside looking in.

If she gains traction with her little group let her have it. They may manage to move a few things although we all know it will be so compromised as to not being a real gain.

All the while just ignore it. Keep your minds focused on what you are doing. Don't fight with them, let them have their group too. Some people who deny you the support you deserve may actually join with them and that is good, more people talking and acting but they will be absorbed by the PTB eventually probably sooner rather than later considering it is MoveOn after all. Those people may actually see what is happening and end up with you. MoveOn may be able to keep some of it in the media since the media seems to be ignoring you for the most part now. At least here in the middle part of the country I hear nothing at all about you, it is as if you happened and were subdued and you went home with your tail between your legs so anything that gets it back into the press is good even if it is this lame excuse for a takeover.

Blinders on, chests out, proudly doing what you do best. Don't even acknowledge them enough to allow the media to pit you against each other, "see how the far left treat each other?".

You are the movement, they are the wanna be movement. You will outlast them by miles.

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Response to MuseRider (Reply #8)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 10:44 AM

104. Ditto!

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:13 PM

11. And so it beguines....or rather continues

Divide and conquer...and this has been the practice to defeat any social movement to change things sense the 60s at least...and going back farther than that to union busting in the 19th.
Triangulate and pit one against the other...encourage violence where ever possible and even create it if necessary by direct police actions...Infiltrate and co opt and use the media to turn public opinion...
nothing has changed and they use it because it works.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #11)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:16 PM

13. So, violence and property destruction are OK with you?

Why would it be better to let violence continue or grow?

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #13)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:25 PM

16. Why do you believe the MSM at all? You know they hate Occupy

 

and that most work actively to demonize it completely.

Please check my videos and links; Occupy is a peaceful movement, despite six months of police brutality and NOTHING being done by the government to stop it. On the contrary; the attacks are organized at the Fed level! They wouldn't hesitate for an instant to use infiltrators and provocateurs to demonize the movement.

Their work seems to have been taking hold, please everyone check the videos and links. The MSM LIE! The 1% cannot make us stay home through sheer brutality so they have to take the next step, which is co-option, which would turn Occupy into moveon's "tea party". In other words, owned and ineffective.

Her words are demonization and destructive to Occupy. Why would you believe her, the police, the MSM, the government?

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #16)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:39 PM

23. I asked a question. You did not answer it

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #23)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:56 PM

34. Thank you for your "concern". Check this:

 

I'm against cops dressed as citizens causing damage to demonize the civilians. Because that's what is occurring. Occupy is a peaceful movement. I know that you saw that because you've read the thread and noted the videos of police infiltration and provocation, of Occupiers turning against vandals, the lists of lies coming out of the mayors offices and the MSM...

WE ARE PEACEFUL.

Do not believe the MSM. They, and their 1% masters want us gone. No support, no movement.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #34)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:20 PM

50. I'm against cops posing as protesters and provoking violence as well

that's why I suggested you document and prove it so you can put a stop to it.

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #50)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:54 PM

59. We'll get right on that while we try to avoid the police attacking us.

Last edited Wed Apr 25, 2012, 10:22 PM - Edit history (1)

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #50)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:37 AM

129. You "suggestion" was been implemented long before you mentioned it.

The violence comes TO Occupy not FROM Occupy...got it?

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #13)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:47 PM

27. Did I say that?

But if you think I did than I must think you want violence by the police to continue and grow...right?
Because that is your cure for violence...stronger violence by cop...Right?
This is how we are divided...by violence perceived or real...and that is why the cops and the political structure uses agent provocateurs to cause it....and always has

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Response to zeemike (Reply #27)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:52 PM

31. I honestly cannot follow what you are saying.

 

I'm not being snarky. Seriously, as someone who has taken a baton across the chest and arms for expressing my 1st Amendment right in a public space, I do NOT want increasing police violence. But all the 1% can do is:

-Increase the police violence and phony charges against us
-Usurp/co-opt/demonize.

The lack of viable channels of information from Occupy appears to be working. You have to work to tune in to hear what is occurring and who we are. And what lies are being used against us, and by whom.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #31)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:00 PM

38. I posted that to nobodyspecial.

so I don't understand your response...

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Response to zeemike (Reply #38)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:02 PM

42. Heh...gotcha. :)

 

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #13)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:52 PM

30. Why are you asking that question? Do you know ANYTHING about OWS or are you just

listening to the MSM and the so-called 'progressive' organizations that took our money for years, while they did nothing and took their orders from the DLC?

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Response to nobodyspecial (Reply #13)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:35 PM

56. The SF Chronicle in January reported that police were attacked with rocks and bricks

and furniture was thrown from the roof a building that SF Occupiers were attempting to take over...

None of this ever happened. The Chronicle had no reporters on scene but the San Francisco Bay Guardian and KPFK did and both reported that the action was entirely peaceful.

By swallowing the lies and smearing a PEACEFUL civil disobedience movement you are swallowing the lies of the 1%.

Useful stooges like Karen Beck get trotted out as appalled Occupiers (when, in fact they are no such thing) in order to smear every single person who has been protesting for the past 6 months... the dozens who have been injured by the police and the thousands who have been arrested.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #11)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:04 PM

61. no dude, the people on the street divided themselves

this guy over here wants to abolish the FED, this guy over here wants free health care, the lady over there is ranting about zionist conspiracies. My friend down the street is going on about the world trade center building 7 collapse and how the Illuminati are behind it all.

Nobody had to divide anything. If there was actual cohesion, the movement would be sustaining itself. But its not. Love how everybody is blaming anything except themselves.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #61)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:12 PM

64. Yep it is always your own fault.

Never the fault of people that exploit the differences to make one mad with the other....got it.
The dividers are the good guys because they just do what needs to be done to keep things the same.

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Response to pasto76 (Reply #61)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:24 PM

67. Yo dude, you need the updated anti-OWS script. The one you are working off of is sooo last November.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #11)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 03:08 AM

134. you are exactly right, divide and conquer. That is their goal. Joseph Goebells, Reich Minister of

 

Propaganda for the Nazi's, used this tactic very effectively. Control the media, control the people.
Karl Rove took lessons from him, did it for Bush and continues to this day.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:25 PM

17. Whatever. MoveOn is so last decade.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:29 PM

19. the article says she's part of Occupy

In any case, she's eschewing violence. I don't have a problem with what she said.

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Response to cali (Reply #19)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:37 PM

22. moveon.org are not part of Occupy, not one whit.

 

Please see the Occupy Los Angeles statement at the end of my original post.

They are attempting to co-opt the movement, and it is not visible to everyone!

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Response to cali (Reply #19)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:55 PM

33. She is not part of Occupy. People who push MSM lies, are not part of OWS.

But she has confirmed what many people have known about Move-on for a long time, so for that we should thank her. They usually just steal the language and deceive people into thinking they represent OWS.

What has Move-on ever accomplished? I regret ever supporting them, but at least it was clear in 2004 what they were all about after disappearing for three months after the election, waiting for people 'to get over it' and then came back looking for money. That was the end of them as far as I was concerned.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:35 PM

20. THIS is what police do to peaceful, unarmed protesters. Warning, graphic!

 

SEIU Los Angeles protester, 2000. The union later collects millions of dollars for these attacks.



Don't forget who is involved, who hates Occupy: Congressional overseer of the DHS, Peter King. DHS have just purchased 450,000,000 hollow-point bullets and multiple armored assault vehicles. They have been proven to be behind the orchestrated attacks made upon Occupy, and the tactics behind them. Why would anyone trust the MSM or misunderstand the government's utter public silence about 6,900+ Occupiers being brutalized and arrested?



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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #20)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:08 PM

47. I support and appreciate Occupy, but notice that his fear is "shaping policy"

He doesnt want policy "shaped". To shape policy you have to affect the system. I agree the system is broken but unless we come up with a replacement, we have to fix the system, to "shape policy". I know many of moveon members and they are not as you portray. Most are senior citizens that want to help but are not willing to Occupy. Shame on those that would turn down such help. Why should Occupy supporters vilify potential allies?

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #47)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:18 PM

49. Why would potential allies not simply seek out or join Occupy?

 

All are welcome, within some guidelines, of course...I'm 50-ish, disabled, poor, extremely low on energy and cash...and I contribute through doing this and other support mechanisms through the internet, and in person when I am both physically and financially able. I've learned that it's possible to do great support work from home behind a computer, or over the phone, etc. In Occupy LA, we have members still in high school, to seasoned elders with amazing stories and perspective. All contribute equally, all are equally heard. There is no bar to contribution excepting willingness.

I really hope that those good folks who wish to make a difference, check their local Occupation through their various online voices and/or in person. Ask what we do and who we are...then try to get us to stop sharing about it

Myself? I vilify organizations and those who support organizations, which cause destruction. moveon.org reveal themselves as apparently working at destruction. They will only reveal their own weaknesses and problems.

A moveon member is not barred from finding and helping Occupy as they wish! Welcome! But they cannot fund-raise or request votes or petition for alignment with any political party or person, or hide long-term plans for such.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #49)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 11:46 PM

84. There are millions that wont be Occupy that want a better America.

Instead of shunning them you should accept that they are willing to fight but not on the same level as Occupy.

Occupy isnt the movement, Occupy is part of the movement.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #84)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 12:32 AM

89. Everyone contributes in different ways. n/t

 

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #84)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 03:52 AM

96. Occupy is a movement

Occupy is a people's movement. Occupy is horizontal democracy. Occupy challenges the system.

MoveOn is none of the above.

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #96)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 11:12 AM

106. Occupy is a movement that is part of a larger movement that started before Occupy.

I strongly support Occupy and would not suggest they change one iota. But there are millions of people that want to fix America that dont fit with Occupy. I dont know who is behind moveon but I havent yet seen any evidence that they are run by the enemy. We need to be united against the enemy, the oligarchs. They would like nothing better than to see us fighting among ourselves.

I will agree that moveon hasnt been successful, but that is no reason to exclude them. I have participated in moveon protests before Occupy.

Occupy isnt moveon and moveon isnt Occupy, but as far as I can see, we all want the same thing.

Be suspicious of those that would turn us against each other.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #106)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 03:29 PM

112. You say "Be suspicious of those that would turn us against each other"

But isn't that exactly what Beck is doing?

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Response to starroute (Reply #112)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 06:51 PM

115. I honestly dont know. I hope you are not basing that on the article ref in the OP.

There were two quotes from Beck that were out of context. Even then she really only said what some in Occupy agree with. Non-violence and revealing those that are violent. Correct me if I am wrong but Occupy stands for non-violence. And isnt it the best strategy if you want to be non-violent to point to those that do want to be violent? We dont want the movement to be co-opted by the anarchists. I am in no way condoning the violence of the police and think they should be prosecuted severly. But dont Occupy'ers try to win over the police?

Be suspicious of those that try to turn us against each other. I cant claim to know what the upper organization of moveon is all about, but I do know many members. They are decent, progressive people that support Occupy but in their way. Most are over 50 and dont want to camp out and fight with the police. BUT THEY ARE PART OF THE MOVEMENT. Why would we exclude them?

Again, beware of those that would try to turn us against each other.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #115)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 09:40 PM

122. Even if you disapprove of the black bloc, calling the cops on them is not the answer

I'm not sure how well I can explain this, but you can't both fight the system and depend on the system to pull your coals out of the fire for you. It's not just a contradiction in terms -- it's ultimately self-defeating. It's one of those "first they came for the communists and I said nothing" situations. By relying on police repression, it validates police repression.

Instead, Occupy needs to be self-policing. I don't know exactly how that could be done -- it's something they're going to have to figure out as they go. Since much of the property damage takes place at night, after the major events, perhaps having more people hang around after dark would help. Or there may be other alternatives.

I'll be the first to agree with you that violence is a problem Occupy needs to deal with. It's not just that it drives away well-meaning middle-aged ladies. It also drives away women in general by fostering macho attitudes. It destroys the transparency that is essential to direct democracy by creating a need for secrecy.

But on the other hand, I've seen suggestions recently that focusing on civil disobedience as a tactic can create the same problems. It may even be worse than black bloc violence, since it tends to become the centerpiece of the movement and excludes anybody who feels they can't afford to get arrested.

On balance, I would say that I do believe Occupy needs to adopt less confrontational tactics. But at the same time, it needs to be revolutionary rather than reformist in its ultimate goals. This means it cannot compromise with the existing system of privilege and coercion. It cannot reinforce that system in any way but needs to demonstrate the system's irrelevance by demonstrating that it is possible to operate effectively outside it.

And it needs to be very, very wary of anyone who might reduce the purpose of the movement to merely petitioning the system for minor cosmetic tweaks.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #106)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:00 AM

125. The larger movement that started before Occupy?

Occupy is it's own movement. There is a mountain of difference between the likes of MoveOn & Occupy.

...and we all don't want the same thing. The establishment wants to continue the system as is...Occupy puts people first.

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #125)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:21 AM

126. Well I wish you the best of luck. nm

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #126)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 12:27 AM

128. Join us.

I mean that...come out and experince the real thing. You will see the difference.

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Response to U4ikLefty (Reply #128)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 09:28 AM

138. I dont doubt you one minute, but we all cannot be Occupy. Please respect us that are fighting

the battle in different ways.

I have protested in all kinds of weather, handed out fliers and visited Representatives and Senators. I think you would welcome our efforts even if they are not the same as yours.

You may argue that we havent been effective and I would counter that that isnt true. We havent fixed the system but we have had an impact.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #138)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 11:55 PM

139. Cannot and will not are two different things.

I think it would be good for you to experience Occupy in a real way & not from a computer. But alas, it is your choice not to find out & I respect that.

I too have done all the things you mention, but Occupy is different....a real movement.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:40 PM

25. What a terrible spokes person.

Good luck not getting arrested, Karen, and good luck aligning yourself with the police. lol

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #25)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:00 PM

40. Karen is not an Occupyer. She is a MoveOn 99% Spring spokesperson.

She is a member of the Tri Valley Democratic Club and she conducted trainings for the 99% Spring.

I don't care how the article chooses to characterize her. The article is wrong.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #40)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:06 PM

62. She doesn't sound like any Occupyer I've ever heard. :)

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #62)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 06:54 PM

116. In the article referenced she doesnt claim to be an Occurier. The authors of the article

are very misleading. They paint a picture of two Occupy factions. Ms. Beck never says that. There are two quotes from her, both are stating what I believe Occupy stands for. The authors make it sound like she is against Occupy, she is against violence. She says that she will shine the spotlight on those that are violent. Isnt that what Occupy agrees with?

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Response to EFerrari (Reply #25)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:21 PM

52. Ha! :) Anyone with a brain, living in Oakland and watching what has happened

 

knows NEVER to call the police!

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:53 PM

32. And all of this distracts from the main truth: Banksters stole over $15 trillion

 

and none have been arrested. None.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #32)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:58 PM

37. Did she have anything to say about the brutal violence of the Police? Move-on is so Mainstream

and have been for many years now. OWS was right to be wary of them.

Anyone who would focus on a few broken windows while ignoring the near killing of several protestors by the Police, has totally revealed herself.

If I were still a member of Move-on, I would not be after this. I hope they do lose membership as a result of this.

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Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #37)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:25 PM

54. Exactly! She's completely inverted!

 

This sort of thing makes me shudder. At least we know that when it shows up, it's part of the overall process of identifying and changing that which is wrong in the world.

Where are The Hurry-Up Twins when you need them!

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 06:57 PM

35. I noticed this disgusting characterization from the SF Gate article:

One contingent is open to violence if it feels provoked and is planning to demonstrate May 1 at the Port of Oakland and possibly try to shut down the Golden Gate Bridge.


Fucking hell. Shutting down the GG Bridge is not VIOLENCE!!!!!

They are trying to characterize peaceful civil disobedience as violent actions and the MoveOn 99%ers want to corral us into merely picketing.



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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #35)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:00 PM

39. Yep! "OWS protesting = violence! moveon protesting = flowers and rainbows!"

 

Demonize the freedom fighters. Push that violence button, over and over. Then try the "terrorist" button.

The only violence relating to Occupy is from the police. Who cannot remember an image of police violence against Occupy?

Great catch! Fuck you, MSM! WE WILL WIN!

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #39)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:05 PM

43. And this: "where tear-gas-filled clashes between police and protesters"

Tear-gas-filled clashes between police and protesters. Outright lie. Kevin Fagan & Carolyn Jones, (the reporters for this piece) are outright lying. The truth?

Tear-gas ATTACKS BY THE POLICE against the protesters.

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #43)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:23 PM

53. (high-five)

 

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Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #35)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:39 PM

71. So OWS is against bridges now?

How is shutting down the GG Bridge civil disobedience? With as much traffic as goes through that bridge, there will no doubt be accidents and injuries.

I'm not saying that it's fair to characterize the action as 'violence' but it sure as hell isn't going to help people who need it.

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Response to randome (Reply #71)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:48 PM

74. It's in solidarity with the 19 unions who work the bridge, ferry and buses and with those who have

been working without a contract since last summer.

Occupy is ready to close the bridge if AND ONLY IF the unions call for a strike on May 1st.

And, I am sure people can figure out how to stop their car. Unless a driver decided to ram someone, nobody will get hurt.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 07:34 PM

55. "Help!!!...

 

...it's the Police!" (Firesign Theatre)

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:11 PM

63. MoveOn lost me a long time ago

it's amusing that they are still attempting to appear relevant and progressive.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:26 PM

68. Can OWS Stand It's Ground Against the Police or MoveOn?

 

Also, why not let or have Anonymous "DOX" those who infiltrate and act out against the OWS Movement? Remember those FBI Wanted Posters in the Post Office? Something like that at a website might help attenuate the Infiltrate Movement (or whatever it is named).

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Response to solarman350 (Reply #68)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 02:10 AM

132. Can't always be 100% sure who is a plant. Don't start a witch hunt. nt

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:33 PM

69. This is so Orwellian, it makes my blood run cold

There's been concern that MoveOn's 99% Spring would attempt to siphon off attention and support from the Occupiers. But I never dreamed they would actually claim to *be* Occupy -- much less that they would construct a false narrative in which Occupy is divided into "factions," with a peaceful faction that is prepared to call the cops on anyone who seems about to get violent.

In addition to what this does to the public face of Occupy, there's also the problem of the Prisoner's Dilemma. In the classic form of the puzzle, the best solution is when nobody rats on anybody else -- but that's possible only as long as there are powerful ties of solidarity that overcome any temptation to think that you might gain an advantage by ratting out the other prisoner.

MoveOn is trying to destroy that solidarity by making it seem socially acceptable to turn on anyone who doesn't meet your standards -- and that is the worst possible thing that they could do to the movement.

Why this really scares me is that I know the cops are closing in. They're studying online videos and cell phone records and Facebook photos. They're playing catch-and-release games with the protesters. They're amassing databases of who was at what encampment or what march. They have names and faces, and when they're ready they'll start knocking on doors and hauling people in based on those records.

They'll be going after leaders and organizers, as well as public faces and people who can fire up a crowd. But they'll also be looking for people who were simply *there* -- with the intention of destroying enough lives to send a message. Some people will lose jobs, others will lose student loans, and others will just be harassed to the point of desperation.

They don't just want to crack down on protests that might turn violent or encampments that might scare away the tourists. They want to destroy the movement, root and branch, in the same way that they've been destroying anti-establishment movements for the last 60 years. And the only possible defense is absolute dedication and absolute solidarity.

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Response to starroute (Reply #69)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:39 PM

72. Fantastic post!

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Response to starroute (Reply #69)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:45 PM

73. Carolyn Jones is an idiot but Fagan isn't.

Write to him.

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Response to starroute (Reply #69)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:49 PM

75. That should be an OP.

Excellent post.

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Response to starroute (Reply #69)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 12:07 AM

85. Brilliant.

 

Please post this or give me permission to quote you in the Occupy sub-forum, where some imagine the 99% spring to be Occupy

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #85)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 12:26 AM

88. By all means, go ahead and quote me

My OP's never seem to get noticed, and yours do -- so I think it will have more traction if you post it.

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Response to starroute (Reply #69)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 12:13 AM

87. "homeland security" HAS been busy on Facebook:

 

http://rt.com/usa/news/journalist-dhs-miller-occupy-802/

Freelance journalist Carlos Miller was documenting a law enforcement raid on the southern Florida’s Occupy Wall Street offshoot, Occupy Miami, when he was arrested earlier in 2012 while filming police — for the third time in just a few years. After investigating why authorities in Miami may have singled him out during the ordeal (in which, he claims, he was only filming the event), Miller stumbled upon some evidence that exposes just why he was targeted by the local branch of the Department of Homeland Security.

Miller was able to obtain through a public records request communication logs from the Miami DHS that reveal what he believes is proof that authorities had been prepared to issue an arrest against him earlier in the year without him even committing a crime. To the DHS, believes Miller, using a camera seems comparable with carrying out an act of terrorism.

Through the public records request, Miller was able to obtain a treasure trove of correspondence that in many instances included his name. One such account was an email communiqué that was issued by the Miami-Dade Police Homeland Security Bureau this past January only eleven hours before law enforcement raided the city’s Occupy encampment and arrested Mr. Miller yet again.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #87)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 12:35 AM

90. And there's this...

http://www.fastcompany.com/1835202/occupy-wall-streets-web-surveillance-problem

Occupy Sites Help Cops, Corps Track Occupiers
BY Neal Ungerleider | 04-25-2012

Big Data is everywhere. Occupy Wall Street protesters, however, are dealing with a special challenge: Online marketers and analytics firms tracing the minutiae of their lives--including their email contacts and physical location--and possibly passing the information on to law enforcement.

According to technology researcher Tim Libert, protesters affiliated with the Occupy movement have unintentionally aided and abetted corporations in tracking them through social media and analytics plug-ins. Popular web analytics tools such as Google Analytics and Sitemeter, it also turns out, repackage website information for corporate clients. These corporate clients can then pass on information to law enforcement agencies willing to purchase the data.

Mobile users of several popular services, whose GPS locations are much more likely to be tracked by overzealous local law enforcement, are especially vulnerable, Libert said in an email to Fast Company.“I'm quite certain with the right set of database queries, Google engineers could identify specific account holders (through Google Maps) who were present at Zuccotti Park, for example. Likewise, it would be fairly trivial to compile a list of people who spent more than six hours at a time at any given Occupy encampment by looking at mobile phone records. That would give you a fairly good list of all Occupiers worldwide, who you could then place on any manner of watch lists.”

Libert found that sites affiliated with the Occupy movement often included Facebook “Like” buttons or analytics services, which lead to user information being repackaged for marketers and corporations. Using the browser plug-in Ghostery, which reveals tracker bugs, Libert discovered that 99 out of 100 Occupy sites he visited employed some sort of cookie or third-party embedded content. Facebook and Twitter buttons showed up on 47% of the Occupy sites--but these buttons are also used by those social media giants to gather detailed information on user likes and habits. Every time an Occupier clicks a “Like” button for their local Occupy movement or information clearinghouse, they also potentially add information to a marketing dossier which could be acquired by probing law enforcement.

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Response to starroute (Reply #90)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 02:53 AM

94. Yep, dang...

 

I've always considered all of my electronic communication to be "open source", just in case

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #87)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 06:58 PM

117. A neighbor got drunk at an open house

I held over the holidays. He pulled out his cellphone and started showing my husband
pictures of himself down at Occupy Seattle disguised as a 99%er. Told him they were
looking for "subversives." We knew he worked for the government, just not in what
capacity. Stupid MF is a prime example of the caliber of person protecting the "homeland."

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Response to starroute (Reply #69)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 09:28 AM

101. The article referenced doesnt say that moveon claims to be Occupy.

"I never dreamed they would actually claim to *be* Occupy -- much less that they would construct a false narrative in which Occupy is divided into "factions,""

The article is horribly written and the authors are the ones that "claim" that Occupy has two factions.

Beware of those that try to split the movement and get us to fight each other.

I dont know the motives of moveon but this article shouldnt be used for evidence that they are the enemy or are trying to co-opt Occupy.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #101)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 03:22 PM

109. You might be right in blaming the reporters -- but I'm not convinced

The article talks about "Occupy movements ... coming in two sharply divided forms." It describes one "faction" as "open to violence" and says that the other is pledged to nonviolence and "resents what it sees as dilution of the Occupy message."

And then it quotes Beck as saying "if anyone wants to fight or get really aggressive or start breaking things, they are not part of us," and describes her as "an organizer for Occupy demonstrators from the Livermore-San Ramon area - who prefer to call themselves 99 Percenters to distance themselves from factions open to violence."

And again a bit further down, "Demonstrators such as Beck say images of clashes with police undercut the central Occupy message of pointing out economic inequities and could be avoided."

The remainder of the article recapitulates the ongoing arguments among Occupiers about the black bloc. But by using the Beck material as the introduction, it makes it seem that the 99% Spring people are the true Occupiers and Occupy Oakland are those nasty violent types who want to spoil things for everyone else.

So there are certainly distortions here -- but the question is whether those distortions were created entirely by the reporters, with Beck's statements being taken out of context to make it seem as if she was speaking for a "faction" of Occupy, or whether Beck herself helped create that impression.

My own guess is that if whatever misunderstanding there was on the part of the reporters, Beck helped create it -- that she presented her group as representing the "central Occupy message" and everyone else as "diluting" or "undercutting" it. Because those sentences in the article are not direct quotes, it's impossible to tell for sure. But I very much doubt that the reporters could have written "demonstrators such as Beck say..." if Beck herself had not made those statements.

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Response to starroute (Reply #109)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 03:27 PM

111. MoveOn -or rather the reporters who wrote this story- don't need to split Occupy.

Occupy is doing that themselves.

Instead of finding common ground among various organizations who also care deeply about the direction America is taking, many of the more vocal proponents of Occupy want to insist that no one is 'pure enough' to be on their team.

It's a shame. A damned shame.

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Response to randome (Reply #111)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 03:34 PM

113. Ridiculous and unsupported. n/t

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Response to randome (Reply #111)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 04:50 PM

114. Anyone who wants to support Occupy and help them achieve their goals is welcomed..

with open arms. Anyone.

Groups that want to co-opt the energy and support for Occupy merely to funnel money into their own pockets, particularly groups like MoveOn that have a record of total failure, should be shunned.

Shame on you for the blatant FUD.

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Response to girl gone mad (Reply #114)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 06:58 PM

118. And anyone who wants to help some other organization...

...is unwelcome because there is only 'OCCUPY!'. Got it. Thanks.

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Response to starroute (Reply #109)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 07:20 PM

120. Please be critical of what you read. People want to manipulate us.

You said, "The article talks about "Occupy movements ... coming in two sharply divided forms." It describes one "faction" as "open to violence" and says that the other is pledged to nonviolence and "resents what it sees as dilution of the Occupy message." " That is the authors saying that there are two factions. It is the authors that claim one faction is "open to violence". These are observations of the authors.

You point out that the authors say, "Demonstrators such as Beck say images of clashes with police undercut the central Occupy message of pointing out economic inequities and could be avoided." This is an observation of the authors not quotes of Ms. Beck.

You say, "But I very much doubt that the reporters could have written "demonstrators such as Beck say..." if Beck herself had not made those statements." Please reconsider. "demonstrators SUCH AS Beck" Please! Why not quote Ms. Beck.

Again, I dont know Ms. Beck, nor her motives. I only ask that we be very careful of manipulation. The oligarchs would love nothing better than to have us fighting each other.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #120)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 10:01 PM

124. You would be right if Beck came out of the Occupy movement -- but she doesn't

It's not unlike the situation here at DU. Somebody who has been around for years and has a proven track record can get away with saying things that would get a newbie tombstoned. This means that newbies have to watch their words more carefully, display humility, and not start speaking in terms of "us" vs. "them" before they've proven their credentials as one of "us."

That's how I see Beck. She isn't an Occupier. She's an outsider. She's the one whose statements about calling the cops on anyone who becomes violent are proposing to create a situation where some people are okay and others are outside the tent. She's the one who seems to be attempting to define Occupy as being about nothing more than "pointing out economic inequalities" -- which would exclude the anarchists, Marxists, and assorted rabble-rouses who are focused on a radical overhaul of the system.

I'll grant that it's possible the reporters completely distorted Beck's actual position. That she said to them, "We're trying to start a movement of our own that focuses on some of the same problems as Occupy but is less confrontational and appeals to a different demographic." And that the reporters had their hearts set on writing about "factions" within Occupy and distorted Beck's actual statements to fit their Procrustes Bed.

But under present circumstances, and given the negative reactions by some of the people who have attended 99% Spring's trainings, I would say suspicion lies with Beck and not with the reporters, unless proven otherwise.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #101)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 02:29 AM

133. This article is horribly written...or really well written and deliberately misleading.

Either way it's irresponsible reporting.

Two reporters are credited, and at least two editors probably reviewed it. They could all be complete idiots I guess. Or they could be doing a sloppy job on purpose to make it seem like the Occupy movement is divided.

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Response to limpyhobbler (Reply #133)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 09:20 AM

137. I totally agree. What a great story to say Occupy has split into clashing factions.

I am not defending Ms. Beck as I know nothing about her. But I am concerned that there would be those that want to drive a wedge between Occupy and the rest of the progressive community.

I dont no shit about moveon at the "headquarter" level, but I am familiar with them at the local level. They have been protesting for years. MoveOn hasnt taken their civil disobedience to the level of Occupy and hasnt gotten the publicity but the ones I know all support Occupy and want to help as they can. I have stood in the freezing rain in front of FedEx, Bank of America and the post office on tax day. Some will question the effectiveness of moveon but I say we are all in the same war. There will be different tactics.

Be suspicious of those that try to turn us against each other.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:36 PM

70. Move-On is a tool of the DLC, fuck them.

They are mad that the Occupy movement does not care about the partisan BS dividing the 99%

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Response to Odin2005 (Reply #70)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 07:12 PM

119. I keep hearing this but yet to see any evidence.

I am suspicious of those that try to divide us. I do not know what the motivation of the leaders of moveon but I would love to learn. If there is evidence that they are a tool of the DLC I would love to see it. I do know many local members of moveon and they are good, progressive people, interested in fighting the oligarchs. They do nothing to jeopardize Occupy.

Be cautious of those that would divide us.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 08:57 PM

76. Unfortunately

Occupy seems to be losing it's steam..

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Response to deaniac21 (Reply #76)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 09:16 PM

78. Haven't been keeping up, have you?

Just so you know, they are just beginning. Worldwide. I hope that is not a disappointment to too many people, although I am sure the efforts to stop them will intensify, which no one doubts so they understand what they will be facing.

Corporate America hates them, and increasingly revealing is how many so-called progressives seem to share that view. That's what I like most about OWS, it has so clearly lifted the rocks and given us a chance to see what was under them all along.

Looking forward to the Spring and Summer. Globally.

The reports of their demise have been around since last Fall. Just like any other large movement they have many enemies among the 1% and their success and growing numbers ensures they will be targeted, brutally.

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Response to deaniac21 (Reply #76)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 10:24 PM

80. Yes. That is why there is activity every day (organizational meetings, teach-ins)

and actions nearly every week.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 09:10 PM

77. well, good for you, ms beck. here, have a cookie...

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 10:31 PM

81. She's out. Pushing media portrayals.

The Black Bloc are not the Occupy movement. Stay home MoveOn.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 10:35 PM

82. Maybe Oakland can borrow You Know Who's private army.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 11:01 PM

83. I'm sure the right has agents provocateur in the Occupy movement. The faster the violent ones can be

identified and rejected the better.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 02:06 AM

93. Thank you for this

There seems to be a lot of ignorance about Occupy. MoveOn does not represent us and they will co-opt us if we let them. I say we co-opt MoveOn, and any such group who tries to imitate Occupy yet really works against us.

Solidarity from Occupy Denver.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 04:01 AM

97. MoveOn is even more pathetic than I thought.

Who do they think they're fooling? Liberal activists know MoveOn is just another office of the party establishment. It's like Third Way claiming to speak for the Occupy movement. It might sound good to corporate media shills, but anyone who cares enough to even know what Occupy is also knows what MoveOn is.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 05:07 AM

98. Thanks for putting this together. K&R. n/t

 

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 06:20 AM

99. Shame on Beck.

Thanks for your work, compiling and posting info. + 1.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 07:36 AM

100. Reading some of this makes me think that we are already in a revolution

There is blood in the streets now. The war is on. It may be a slower kind of war than a military offensive with bombs and airstrikes, but it's a war on our streets against us. It's all OK if we don't rise up and take to the streets, but now that Occupy has taken to the streets it's pretty obvious they will crack down on the population.

So for all those people who wanted torches and pitchforks they have them now, except the violence isn't coming from the people.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 10:46 AM

105. So is she related to Glen?

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 08:02 PM

121. Good for her!

Flush out the right wing provocateurs who I assure you will be there. They have been at every other big protest where progressive youth are involved.

I love the Guy Fawks masks and how they represent the movement, more in reference to the excellent movie V for Vendetta than the original person of course. But those and for sure any "protesters" wearing black bandanas over the face should be denounced and asked to either remove their face coverings or leave the protest. IMO if you are either fearful, bashful, or embarrassed to show your face at a protest, or you claim it is part of your anarchist "costume" and you refuse to shed it, for a cause you supposedly are proud to support it is very suspicious.

Because the establishment WILL send in provocateurs to stain any Occupy Spring, you can count on it. Its stupid to go blithely into it thinking it won't happen, and the best defense is a good offense. If it means offending a few innocent protesters that wanted to look scarey or clever etc....then that's the price.

I am sick of these police agents doing things like the WTO conference in Toronto where they conveniently abandoned a Police car in the middle of the street, disappeared from sight and then sent in a couple of their black clad goons to light it on fire. And surprise surprise the news media just happened to be right there to film the whole thing.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Thu Apr 26, 2012, 09:59 PM

123. Paraphrased read: "We will have a nice peaceful barbecue, and sing Kumabaya loudly, in the hope

that the 1% will hear us and repent, and voluntarily give up their power.

And if we see those nasty Occupy people actually resist the 1% by engaging in some sort of general strike or other constructive direct action while watching it on TV, we will wring our hands and gnash our teeth, and call the appropriate authorities immediately."

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Original post)

Fri Apr 27, 2012, 03:41 AM

136. I understand the concern but is it anything to get worked up about.

Does this really change anything? Everybody is going to do whatever they were going to do anyway. This lady is not anybody's boss.

The Mainstream Media is going to try to discredit Occupy every chance it gets. Same shit different day.

Is vandalism, like spray-painting, a violent crime?? Not in my book. Personally I couldn't care less.

But almost nobody was doing that stuff anyway and many of those were planted by the cops. It costs nothing to agree with "no vandalism" so who cares? If anything it will make it harder for the undercover cops to instigate stuff.

It's really similar to last fall during the really big marches when there was a large labor turnout. Occupiers did their thing. Unions kind of did their own thing, separate sometimes but connected sometimes. The only difference now is MoveOn found a way to get their fingers in it. But BFD. Ignore them. Carry on as usual.

Anybody who was thinking about walking onto a bridge is not going to be swayed by that lady to stop. And anyone who wasn't going to still isn't going to.

Those big union crowds from last fall, they're cool. They're in. That's who alot of the 99%spring people are, I think. I went to one of their events and it was mostly union people.

They probably don't trust Move On anymore than you do or I do.



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