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Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:46 AM

Why the "My bad sex wasn't rape" editorial is so utterly, utterly vile.

So, this was posted: http://www.salon.com/2013/03/22/my_bad_sex_wasnt_rape/


I'm going to try to break down why this was so disgustingly, sickeningly wrong.

I say "try", because to do so properly would take a lot more time, because there is a shit ton of crap to sift through here.

First of all, let's take the verbiage she uses. Stuff like this:
sleeping with any girl who would spread her legs

Does that sound neutral to you? Sure doesn't sound that way to me. I've heard that terminology used many times, and never by anyone who respected women.

Let's move on.


Two weeks after we had sex for the first time, he and I and his best friend got drunk — me for the first time in my life — and I ended up having sex in a park with both of them. It was somewhat miserable...

This short passage gives us a lot to analyze. She lost her virginity at 15, and two weeks later is in a threesome. While drunk for the first time. But hey, it was only somewhat miserable, so she's lucky, I guess.

So yeah, that's not worthy of analysis at all, I'm sure. Surely not, in a culture in which young women are conditioned from birth to see their worth and value in their looks and sexual desirability. Messages which this particular woman started learning way too early, earlier than other girls who aren't introduced to that world... way too early. No, let's just pretend that she's perfectly reasonable to dismiss her desire to have sex when she didn't really want to in order to please males with a handwave. Cause really, how is that meaningful, right?

And let's just skip over fact that so many people here have been focusing like a laser on the idea that since it's not illegal everywhere for 15 year olds to have sex with 19 year olds, none of this is questionable at all. Let's assume that she was in one of those places where it was legal, and let's pretend that it is also meaningless that she was drunk for the first time, or that she had lost her virginity 14 days earlier and was now involved in her first threesome.

And let's also skip the part where she was sexually abused from 4 to 9. And let's also skip the part about her acting out with an old man in her neighborhood at age 12, engaging him in phone sex. For all we know, she considers this acting out part of her "agency" and exploring her own sexuality, so let's just leave that aside.

Let's just skip to the part about her not thinking it was rape. You know what? Good for her. I'm really happy for her that she doesn't feel victimized, and wasn't traumatized. That's nice for her.

But she isn't the only woman in the world, and for her to be pushing the idea that drunk 15 year olds are fair game is, frankly, beyond fucked up. We all know that teens will have sex when they want to. But the fact is that rapists use alcohol to rape. Her muddying the waters on this issue by pretending her experience is somehow noteworthy is bullshit.

So she didn't feel like she was raped, big fucking deal! A whole hell of a lot of women who first had sex at 15 don't feel like they were raped. A whole hell lot of a women who first had sex at 12 don't feel like they were raped either. No one is out there telling women that they have to feel that they were raped if they don't feel that way. Because if they don't, that's their prerogative.

No, what's important is reaching the tens of thousands of women each year who do feel that they were raped. What is important is reaching the women who do feel that they were raped but who still aren't reporting it. And what this person is doing is not fucking helping.

No, what she is doing is playing into the hands of MRAs and victim blamers who want to silence women. More on that later.

whether the coverage on CNN after the conviction was too sympathetic to the rapists (perhaps CNN went too far,...

"Whether" it was too sympathetic? Really? "Whether"?

"Perhaps" they went too far?

Telling, yes? Yes. Let's move on.


So much of victim blaming relies on these outmoded views of women’s sexuality.

No, no it doesn't. Victim-blaming relies on bullshit ideas. For example, the one where some people like to trumpet the idea that women claim they were raped just because they didn't enjoy the sex, or they regretted it later. (Sound familiar? It should. Because Anna trumpeted that shit herself, in this piece of shit editorial. Good work, Anna!)


At the same time, it is not helpful to label every murky sexual encounter as rape or to say that anything any woman states is rape is, in fact, rape.

Yeah, that's a huge problem, taking women at their word. She's so brave to stick her neck out on this. Rapists and MRAs everywhere are so grateful a woman has finally had the courage to come out in a (supposedly) progressive publication and say that since women VERY RARELY lie about being raped, that makes it "not helpful" to label rape as rape, just because a woman says she was raped.

So great to see this being praised here on DU, really.


If they don’t take control of their own erotic development early, they may never take control — like the women I knew in college who blamed alcohol or drugs for their own sexual adventures or misadventures,

Yet another attempt to give credence to the victim-blaming lies that rape culture finds so comforting. I imagine, given what she said about the coverage of the Steubenville rapists, that the writer probably has all kinds of empathy for rapists in college.

Seeing a pattern here?


For most of us, we don’t come into our own about articulating our specific wants and desires until late in life, if ever. Let us encourage a culture where everyone – regardless of gender, orientation, etc. – does so openly, honestly, respectfully. Let us all learn to say, “I don’t know how I’m going to like that, but let’s try it out.” (We could take some lessons from the BDSM communities where boundaries and limits are strictly negotiated in advance.)

Yes, the BDSM community, where rape is even more common than in the so-called "vanilla" community. What stinking, stupid bullshit.


I guess that's gonna have to be enough. I'm not willing to spend the time that would be necessary to really expose every ounce of steaming shit in this thing.

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Reply Why the "My bad sex wasn't rape" editorial is so utterly, utterly vile. (Original post)
redqueen Mar 2013 OP
La Lioness Priyanka Mar 2013 #1
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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:50 AM

1. what bothers me most about that article is the implication of the title

as thought most women claim bad sex as rape. she is not special in the fact that her bad sex was not rape, and all people have bad sex and don't claim it was rape.

the underlying assumption of her thread title is that people in general are claiming bad sex as rape, really irks me.

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #1)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:04 PM

12. I tried to express that, or something like

Crudely and badly, so I didn't participate in the thread after.




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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #12)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 04:54 PM

172. Me, too. I cont'd to participate for a while, to no avail. nt

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #12)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 06:01 PM

191. Same here.

The gist was that two predators got her drunk on her ass and then used her body to masturbate into. It's kind of sad that she sees that as merely "bad sex," but maybe that allowed her to survive it all these years.

And that's as nicely as I can put it.

"Bad sex" is Leroy in "Waiting to Exhale," a passage that was so funny I laughed hard enough to drop the book.

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #1)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:06 PM

17. She is being a good little girl just like her father taught her to be. You know, always protect the

Rapist. I know those values - I grew up with them too. My sister and brother are outraged with me that I have told the truth about the regular rapes I grew up with. They say its sick to remember or talk about that stuff. My sister said "boys will be boys, they have to have sex" meaning it was okay my brother a decade older was raping me. And my brother claims what he did to me was normal and right but how morally terrible of me to have told on him.

I know all about those fun family values. F*ck them and f*ck being a good little girl.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #17)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:10 PM

21. ugh. sorry to hear that. i do agree with you that it's a good girl syndrome

and a great need to be accepted by men

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #21)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:11 PM

24. Yup....

Think I will exit this thread now as the attacks are beginning like always and it's far too triggering for me.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #24)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:20 PM

211. Telling on your perp

in a toxic family seems to guarantee that you -- the survivor of the dangerous and damaging environment within which you should have known only love, trust, and healthy nurturing -- will be labeled the "bad girl"!

In my toxic family, I have been labeled the seductress, and BLAMED for my sick perp's actions, despite the fact I was a child when he molested me.

I am estranged from most of my family, because the pain is still too big. It's overwhelming.

I usually ask survivors if I can give a hug. I hope you will accept this one from a kindred survivor.


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Response to chervilant (Reply #211)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:28 PM

231. Thank you, and a hug right back!

Lets hear it for us "bad" girls who agitate for change and justice!

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #17)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:00 PM

130. if it's "normal and right" what's wrong with "telling"?

Abuserbrother fail

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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #130)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:09 PM

133. Lol well he is a homeless alcoholic at this point so, fail in general too....

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #1)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:36 PM

53. Yes. That false assumption renders it pointless...

But was guaranteed to get her loads of attention - and approval from men.

I think its why so many responded by describing it as creepy. The whole premise seems manufactured as a way for her to make a buck off her sad experiences.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #53)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:40 PM

59. I agree with you.

The title of her wagon load of straw mixed with a steaming pile of manure should have been -

Attention! Attention! I Need Attention.


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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #59)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:07 PM

109. She's only been published widely 3x: writing about her "boobs" , Dad as a lover

And now this.
Not so hard to figure out that she's tired of writing for her local Penny saver. Salon should be mortified.

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #53)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:37 PM

150. Yes, bettyellen, you've got it: attention and approval from men

Lets the abusers off the hook, and allows those non-abusers who are made uncomfortable by talking about it to sink comfortably back into denial.

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #1)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:39 PM

58. I don't see how it can be anything but intentional.

Conflating bad sex with rape is something rape apologists and MRAs do.

There are a lot of discussions about "grey rape" and things like that, which involve the idea that it's pretty hard to understand how there could be much confusion, if you care much at all about how your partner feels while you're having sex... but that isn't 'calling bad sex rape'... and such over simplification only feeds rape culture. It's the kind of reactionary simplistic bullshit we see used by republicans to dumb down issues into meaningless talking points.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #58)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:06 PM

205. the worst is that it helps rapists justify their behavior

Didn't she give any thought to that before writing? Why didn't Salon consider what they were publishing?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #205)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:19 PM

210. Good questions.

I'd like to know the answers, too.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #205)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:21 PM

213. we watch a lot of people validate the rape culture and sexism for their own personal reasons. nt

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Response to redqueen (Reply #58)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 10:03 PM

249. DING DING DING! Redqueen, you're our grand prize winner!

Last edited Thu May 2, 2013, 04:29 PM - Edit history (5)

I don't see how it can be anything but intentional...(S)uch oversimplification only feeds rape culture...(T)he kind of reactionary simplistic bullshit...used...to dumb down issues...

By glossing over the fact that her first "bad sex" was actually at the age of four via her father, Ann March paints a grossly oversimplified and hypocritically false self-portrait that falls light years short of the most basic editorial standards (which Salon should have noticed). Either she's sicker than she realizes, or she's "intentionally" stirring up controversy just to help sell her forthcoming book.


rocktivity

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:54 AM

2. Not to mention she describes her experiences with her father raping her as a 4 year old as

"I guess it's true you never forget your first lover."

That being said I saw myself in her history. Thinking I owed sex to every man who expressed interest. Thinking that was my purpose in life. Putting up with anal rape, a guy once trying to drown me, and other various forms of abuse because I had been taught thoroughly from a very young age I deserved that kind of treatment - that all women and girls deserved that in fact.

I've been told I have either NMO or MS. Part of me is hoping it will turn out to be NMO, which is fatal, so I can just exit already. Just so freaking tired sometimes.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:56 AM

5. I am so sorry for your pain.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #5)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:57 AM

6. Thank you.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:57 AM

7. Me too, LL.

I saw myself in her acting out as well.

And I'm sorry... I know it's so hard sometimes... I hope the other part of you, the hopeful part, triumphs.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #7)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:58 AM

8. Thank you. It's hard watching the increasing woman hatred sometimes.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:05 PM

14. Just so freaking tired sometimes.


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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:50 PM

79. The way I dealt with it

was that I forgave that little girl (me when I was six)who was raped. It wasn't her fault which I know as an adult. The adult me figuratively hugged her close and let her cry and told her she didn't deserve it and promised I would never let her get hurt again. When I did that the pain stopped and I became a defender of women, not men.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #79)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:53 PM

87. Thank you.

That process is so valuable, but so hard, and so painful. I've never cried so hard or felt so much pain in my life.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #79)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:53 PM

88. Yes! Thank you. I am sorry it happened to you too.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #88)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:57 PM

96. Hugs



Sharing our stories is very important. Shame is something we need to get rid of forever.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #96)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:58 PM

98. :)

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Response to lunatica (Reply #96)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 03:24 PM

157. And really hard to get rid of when it's such an instinctive reflex/reaction

This thread is full of "ugh" 's and hugs. DU women are awesome.

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Response to loudsue (Reply #157)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 04:13 PM

166. It's a learned reaction

No one is born with shame. It has to be taught. It can feel like it's instinctive because many of us can't really remember not feeling it. I felt it for many decades but I don't anymore. I was victimized and have no reason whatsoever to feel shame because of it. There is nothing I did or I was to cause it to happen.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #166)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:40 PM

237. Shame is the hardest. It affects every single aspect of my life

It affects every relationship.

Did a lot of therapy in midlife -- could probably still be doing it but decided to do something else with the money, so it's been awhile. Reading through this thread makes me think it would probably be of benefit to go back, but the depression ironically enough gets in the way of putting forth the effort.

About 20 years after the year-long molestation I opened Pandora's Box and started to tell. I was 32. It was not a rewarding experience. My mother never liked me again. My brother wanted to know if I had been brutalized and when it seemed I had not, basically didn't want to know about it ever again, and was angry at me for hurting our mother. My sister was my ally, but not going to do my battles for me. More than one person outside the family advised me to not "claim to be a victim." I stopped telling. I'm now 65.

My mother's shame issues were if anything more corrosive than mine. She actually caught the SOB molesting my daughter (age 3 y.o at the time), whom I had thought would be safe until puberty. And she, my mother, did not tell me. I had to tell her because my little girl told me. And, like I said, she never really liked me again. My relationship with my daughter is less than optimal to this day. Shame about that, so to speak. It was -- bizarre -- but you have to come from a dysfunctional family yourself to get how it works.

Anyway, the writing I did at midlife on Persephone, Demeter, and Hekate was good. Had a lot of material.

Hekate

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Response to Hekate (Reply #237)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:43 PM

238. Yes, I understand very well the dynamics you are talking about.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #79)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:55 PM

91. The adult me figuratively hugged her close and let her cry

this is a technique that can be applied to so much of the pain in life that we later have to deal with.

i havent heard many speak about this. and i agree totally. one step further.

the ego. i tell the ego. i do not need you any more. can be along for the ride but not the driver. lol

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Response to lunatica (Reply #79)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:57 PM

94. ...



I'll hug you and that little girl too.

and to hell with those here that want to dismiss the pain, we have each other and fuck em all they can all go to hell.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #94)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:01 PM

103. We both thank you!

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Response to lunatica (Reply #79)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:38 AM

320. My heart breaks for the six year old you.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:47 PM

152. Regarding chronic disease

First, I hope you regain some health and hope.

Second, and this is related, though it's not your illness.

I have struggled with fibromyalgia et al. (it's a cluster) for well over half my life, and a few years ago my sister sent me some links regarding childhood sexual abuse and the incidence of fibromyalgia in the survivors. It's enormous. In the few years since then, many more articles have been written, too many for me to sort and reference at the moment. Just Google "fibromyalgia + sexual abuse" if interested.

Childhood abuse is the "gift" that just keeps on giving.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #152)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 03:45 PM

163. I'm sorry you have suffered with all of this!

I was thinking about that. How it doesn't surprise me that the MRI showed there is such a large lesion covering my spinal cord - big time scar tissue - I have been asking God to let me die, off and on, all my life that I can remember.

I read those who were abused as children have older DNA or something - it literally on a molecular level ages us horrendously....I have felt very old for a long time. I am sure you have too...

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 03:26 PM

159. This made me cry. My heart goes

out to you and all abuse victims.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #159)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 03:46 PM

164. I want better for those coming after us.

That is why we keep not shutting up. We want better for the young ones...

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:30 PM

232. I didn't see that

Did she publish that elsewhere?

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:58 AM

297. Oh, Liberal Loner, thank

you for sharing. Despite the mockery and dismissivness that rape victims face here, know that what you share here may be helping someone reading your experience. You are so brave.

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Response to myrna minx (Reply #297)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:00 AM

298. Thank you so much. Oh I hope it helps. Been feeling like we are losing the fight lately. Think

I am going to watch "Mega Disasters" on TV to cheer myself up now.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #298)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:10 AM

300. It's an uphill challange to be sure. The sheer contempt we face even here

on a "liberal" message board (and even in this thread) is difficult, but discovering brave souls like you brings comfort and makes it worth wading through the nasty mockery and eye rolling.

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Response to myrna minx (Reply #300)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:17 AM

301. Thank you. The struggle continues....

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:55 AM

3. I agree with you.

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Response to In_The_Wind (Reply #3)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:42 PM

64. Thank you.

It was rough having to sift through that. I trust you understand.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:55 AM

4. .

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Response to theKed (Reply #4)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:10 PM

22. Jury results

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Popcorn? Really?

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:07 AM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Yeah, popcorn. If it's really that egregious the poster will be appropriately dealt with.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The popcorn smilie should only be used in emergency circumstances but...I'll let it pass this time.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: I'm more bothered by the rolling eyes. As if being concerned that an editorial that reaches thousands could be detrimental and pointing that out is somehow eyeroll and popcorn worthy. I'm sure this post will stand but it's quite insulting.

I was Juror #6.

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #22)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:15 PM

29. thank you jury 6. this is jsut another way for men to work at derailing these conversations.

says a hell of a lot about a man that can roll the eyes and suggest entertainment in a discussion that is so painful for so many.

the very bottomline of the real problem in our society today. and the war on women.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #29)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:19 PM

33. I agree.

As someone who has had bad sex and definitely had sex I regretted and as someone who has been sexually assaulted, I probably should have opted out as a juror. But it shows that the poster thinks my personal pain, that was kinda demeaned by the editorial and then further demeaned by the eye roll and popcorn, is something not worth discussing. Forget about why this editorial goes beyond someone's mear "personal situation...", anyway, if I said what I really thought about theKed, I'd be alerted on.

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #33)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:22 PM

36. yup. nt

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #33)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:23 PM

38. Oh, be my guest.

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Response to theKed (Reply #38)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:44 PM

68. remdi95

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Response to niyad (Reply #68)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:08 PM

111. huh?

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Response to theKed (Reply #38)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:09 PM

206. What is your problem?

How is it you find the subject of little girls being raped entertaining?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #206)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:12 PM

207. That's clearly the take-away from this

Go troll somebody else.

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Response to theKed (Reply #207)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:15 PM

209. You responded to a series of posts where women

talked about their experiences being raped as little girls by posting popcorn. When another woman repeated that she was angry and your callousness because of her own experience being raped, you repeated the post. How is it possible that you can be so callous to victims of violent crimes? What motivates that kind of behavior?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #209)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:21 PM

212. You sure

read a lot into an eyeroll. I don't condone, nor have I ever, rape in any form or context, so you can just shove off trying to spin anything that way. This OP is a post purely out of vanity, and purposeful flamebait, and that is why I posted what I did.

Goid day to you.

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Response to theKed (Reply #212)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:24 PM

215. Not even close

and no one forced you to read it. She offered a critique that expresses what many people feel based on that first OP and the column. That you are unable to understand that or have enough respect for other human beings to at least pass by without being rude says a great deal about who you are.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #215)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:39 PM

222. "Pass by without being rude"

Project, much?
You don't agree with my assessment? That's fine, I wouldn't expect you to break formation. You should follow your own advice, though.

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Response to theKed (Reply #222)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:19 PM

250. if you hadn't entered this thread

with a strange compulsion to taunt rape victims, I wouldn't know of your existence.
That kind of behavior leaves an impression. But I realize the horror you face at having to encounter discussions of women being raped far exceeds the actual crime of rape. Poor you. I hope some day you'll be able to get past the trauma women have so cruelly inflicted on you.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #250)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:22 PM

251. Why are you here?

I don't think I've ever seen you make a post that wasn't dripping with angst and vitriol. You must truly hate being on DU. So why are you here?

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Response to theKed (Reply #251)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:50 PM

256. I am a Democrat who opposes rape, rape apology, and

scorn of rape victims. That is why I am here. You entered this thread to post inconsiderate popcorn emoticons and eye rolls in response to posts by rape victims. You say this thread is worthless and a vanity post, yet you feel compelled to continue to participate in it. I confronted you on your callous response to a woman talking about her experience of rape. Anyone who taunts a rape victim crosses the line of decency. Even if that is not what you intended, you did not make an effort to correct what might have been a misperception by apologizing. You instead have doubled down and repeated over and over again that discussions about rape amount to "vanity" posts. So I don't need to ask why you're here. And if other members behaved as you, I would hate DU, but fortunately that is not the case.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #256)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:52 PM

257. I feel compelled to continue participating

because some members of this community feel compelled to falsely accuse me, and victimize me.

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Response to theKed (Reply #257)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:01 AM

260. victimize you?

Oh dear. How tragic for you. How ever will you survive such a trauma?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #260)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:04 AM

262. I'm sure I'll be just fine.

They're only words.

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Response to theKed (Reply #257)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:39 AM

279. Victimize you?

you poor thing

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Response to theKed (Reply #212)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:47 PM

254. why don't you shove off

You are beyond the pale with your flipancy of a serious discussion. You are the one flamebating here. You could have just as easily scrolled right past this OP, instead you chose to degrade and mock survivors of child rape.

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #254)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:49 PM

255. who?

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Response to theKed (Reply #255)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:57 PM

258. the

person obviously sitting in his Mom's basement eating cheetos. Did you think I was talking to you?

Why don't you prove you aren't an asshole and self delete the threads where you not only seem pleased to be mocking rape survivors, but also pleased with yourself for doing so.

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #258)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:58 PM

259. Who's mocking rape victims?

Not me.
If you got that from my posts you are grossly fucking misreading me.

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Response to theKed (Reply #259)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:08 AM

263. yes you are

and why can't you trust women when they inform you that you are. Do you have problems trusting women so much that you have to mock them when you get the chance. Are you used to your authority not being questioned that you think your insensitive posts in this thread will go inchallenged?

Get over yourself, the world would be a much better place if you learn to respect others
.

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #263)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:10 AM

264. Oh, please.

You have no idea about anything about me. Seriously. None.

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Response to theKed (Reply #264)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:18 AM

266. But you

apparently know enough about crime victims to degrade and mock them.

Care to answer any of the questions I asked you? Or are you only here to disrupt and sling shit on a serious conversation?

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #266)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:20 AM

267. Not particularly

mostly because they're absolutely farcical.

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #258)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:04 AM

261. Not him

Rape survivors are victimizing HIM.

I loved the Cheetos comment.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #261)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:13 AM

265. I'll

be back in the Am to see if he decided he wanted to be a real man, or just play one on TV.

Have a good night.

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Response to mercuryblues (Reply #265)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:28 AM

271. Man, i wish I was on TV

That'd be a sweet gig.

Until that day, however, I'll just continue to be the clear-headed human being that I always have been.

Sleep well!

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #261)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:27 AM

270. LOL

Sure got me.
Enjoy a high-five with your pal.
You sure showed that evil man, yup.

To be clear: not rape survivors. You. And people like you. (which is not a way of saying "women", since I'm quite sure you'd take it as such)

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Response to theKed (Reply #270)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:31 AM

272. Victimizing you

for telling you that posting popcorn emoticons in response to a woman talking about her experience of being raped is callous. Yes, that is tragic. And here you thought you could get a laugh at someone's expense and not be called out on it, but now several women have told you what they think. No wonder you feel so victimized.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #272)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:39 AM

274. I'm not sure what I'm being called out for, exactly.

My response was not to a woman talking about her experience of rape. My response was to a response to a woman talking about her experience of rape. Which was from a different thread. Where this OP belongs, and was indeed found in originally.

That is an important distinction which you clearly are cool with glossing right over.

This OP was created as flamebait, and the usual gang were all to happy to oblige, weren't they?

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Response to theKed (Reply #274)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:53 PM

341. This thread is the opposite of flamebait.

It is a bonding thread.

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #341)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:39 PM

350. +1

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Response to theKed (Reply #274)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:29 PM

362. You twice posted your little popcorn taunt

The second time was in direct response to someone who had just disclosed that she was a rape survivor. This is not flame bait. This is a discussion of attitudes about rape, child rape, and incest. You are the only person who has flamed the thread.

It now has 92 recommendations, far more than the initial post you preferred. Of course that thread justified rape. This one critiques it and points out the fact that it is--amazingly--AGAINST THE LAW. The horror.

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #22)


Response to theKed (Reply #37)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:30 PM

48. Vanity post? Are you fucking kidding?

I decided it SHOULD be an OP because I know a LOT of people would have been sick of the shit that was being slung fast and loose in that other trainwreck of a thread.

I really get that you disagree, but there's a handy hide thread feature for you to use instead of derailing this thread with bullshit accusations.

Thanks for showing everyone what you think is important though. Seriously.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #48)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 03:56 PM

165. I'm glad you did the OP.

I saw the first post and reading what many were saying was scary. I don't think many read the full article and had no idea what they were truly agreeing with. Thank you for going through that nasty mess and breaking it down.

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Response to Lady Freedom Returns (Reply #165)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:21 PM

173. Thank you.

This support is very helpful, I'm sure you understand why.

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Response to theKed (Reply #37)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:32 PM

50. NO. Just those jurors in particular. Lots disagree with it. nt

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Response to theKed (Reply #37)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:42 PM

65. No, only four other despicable people agreed with your despicable

post. Way to go, DU!! Let the women-hate continue!

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #65)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:43 PM

67. Lol great post.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #65)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:02 PM

104. don't worry, adding two words to the ToS is on it's way!

oh wait... we don't even get that.

We get continual goading and mocking on the issue of rape.

Thanks, Boss! I'll be sure to send a little extra something for you by paypal!

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Response to Whisp (Reply #104)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:05 PM

107. Heh.

It's crystal clear where we stand here, isn't it? Rock on, dudes! ( I would love to ask the owner here how he'd feel if his daughter was ridiculed and scorned while everyone ate popcorn and laughed at her, but from reading another thread it seems he only has sons.)

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #107)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:07 PM

110. MENZ ONLEEZ sign needed

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #110)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:22 PM

120. It's always Save the Wiener week here. n/t

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Response to Whisp (Reply #120)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:35 PM

125. Is Anthony back now? (Sorry, had to crack a joke.)

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #65)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:09 PM

112. Nice mischaracterization

but please, continue.

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Response to theKed (Reply #37)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:46 PM

71. I have served on my share of DU juries...

...and I have often voted to leave a post that I disagreed strongly with. Do not make the assumption that just because people voted to let your post stand, that means they agreed with it. Often they are just saying it does not violate the TOS.

I would have voted to let it stand, but IMO your post was ridiculous and in poor taste.

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Response to theKed (Reply #37)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:47 PM

73. Vanity post?

You need some help.

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Response to theKed (Reply #37)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:03 PM

131. bullies be bullying. feckoff, please

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Response to elehhhhna (Reply #131)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:10 PM

135. You are awesome!!!

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Response to theKed (Reply #37)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 03:06 PM

154. Vanity post? well, aren't you special

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Response to theKed (Reply #37)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 06:03 PM

193. What the hell is your problem? Normally I'm not one to jump on people but WTF?

If you don't like or don't appreciate the OP - for whatever reason - why not just ignore it? Why rub salt in people's wounds, when it comes to such a sensitive topic?

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #193)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 06:06 PM

195. I'm sorry

Just who is being wounded, here?

I'm not ignoring the OP because I'm tired of trying to ignore things.

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Response to theKed (Reply #195)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 06:09 PM

199. Apparently the OP was, earlier in life. And is now trying to deal with that.

And what are you "tired of trying to ignore"? Exactly how are you being harmed or threatened?

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #199)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 06:13 PM

201. I'm definitely not taking that bait

It is almost exactly the sort of thing I am exasperated at seeing in GD lately. So, no thank you.

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Response to theKed (Reply #201)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:34 PM

219. women, how dare they speak in public

No wonder you're so exasperated.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #219)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:36 PM

220. What the fuck is your malfunction?

Seriously.

How dare a man speak up, right?

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Response to theKed (Reply #220)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:21 AM

268. Man hating

 

This thread is dripping in it.

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Response to Floyd_Gondolli (Reply #268)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:57 PM

342. Could you please provide three examples of "man hating" in this thread.

Be specific.

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Response to theKed (Reply #195)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:22 PM

214. How dare women talk about rape

right in front of you? Don't they know you don't allow any voicing of women's issues on a Democratic website. Imagine having to share the world with women who don't think rape is a fun. What is the world coming to.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #214)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:34 PM

218. When people talk about guns

They have to go to gun forums. When they want to talk about Elizabeth Warren for President they go to the group for her. When they want to talk about Nuclear power, they take it to that group. There are 3 groups about feminism, and one for men, too. There's no reason for thread, after thread, after thread in General Discussion. Exceptions are made for major events, but this is no Newtown, and this has been churning through Meta, and now GD for weeks.

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Response to theKed (Reply #218)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:39 PM

221. Please, take that up with Skinner

You shouldn't have to be exposed to talk of rape because you can't resist the temptation to enter the thread and be rude to rape survivors. Go on now. I can't wait to see the post in ATA.

But how awful of you to have to exposed to the fact that 25% of women in this country are raped. You're so aggrieved by our existence. However do you get through the day? The experience of children being raped pales in comparison to the possibility to that you might actually encounter a thread where they talk about it.

You share the world with women. As repulsive as you may find that fact, we are going to speak our minds. No one forces you to read any of it. Lots of people trash threads with the world guns. You can do the same with "rape." You can even put ever female poster on the site on ignore, if you want. NO one forces you to read anything.


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Response to BainsBane (Reply #221)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:46 PM

223. You're welcome to speak your mind

You have several groups dedicated to doing just that. If you think that's wrong, by all means ask him to shut them down so you can use GD for that purpose. I'd love to see that ATA thread, too.

It's absolutely scandalous, I know -outrageous, even - that someone doesn't want to see another circle-the-wagons, brow-beating thread against those awful menfolk.

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Response to theKed (Reply #223)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:53 PM

225. You do know this 'won't someone shut those wimminz up!' shit has been addressed in ATA.

Please stop spewing your bile all over this thread and take it up with the admins.

"brow beating those awful menfolk"

How very telling. What a victim you are.

If you don't like the threads, hide them. Obviously most of the men here don't share your poor, poor, persecuted view.

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Response to theKed (Reply #223)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:19 PM

230. Why do you assume the post is about awful "menfolk"?

What an odd comment. Firstly, it's a post about a column by a woman. Secondly, why would you think a thread critiquing rape is "brow-beating . . . awful menfolk"? Interesting that you assume rapists and men are one in the same. No one else here shares that view.

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Response to theKed (Reply #218)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:53 PM

226. I think I have this right...

You want the women to talk in the kitchen because greater DU is man space.

Do you feel threatened by women (and their allies) supporting other women right out here in the open?

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #226)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:58 PM

227. I think you've managed

to twist words, yes. Never did I say those posters were not welcome. Those topics have groups dedicated to them.

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Response to theKed (Reply #227)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:00 PM

228. Could you post a list of "those topics"?

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Response to theKed (Reply #227)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:32 PM

233. That isn't your decision

You don't run this site, Thank God. And you don't get to decide where we post.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #233)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:39 PM

236. .

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Response to theKed (Reply #227)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:57 AM

289. i think durham said it exactly right. reading you absurdity on how du should run, by such a newbie

i was trying to figure out exactly how to respond to your demand we go elsewhere to discuss womens issues. i think durham got it exactly right. your demand to have a woman free zone. that would be, unless you men choose to denigrate women. then by all means lets have a thread about a woman to play in

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Response to theKed (Reply #227)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:13 PM

357. Why should rape and sexual assault be sent to the feminist forums.

Do you know who perpetrates a majority of these attacks? Sick fuck.

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Response to theKed (Reply #218)


Response to BainsBane (Reply #214)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:33 PM

234. Brilliant post! Goes right to the root of the problem and exposes it.

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Response to theKed (Reply #37)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:13 PM

208. right, because the post talking about how it's okay

to get underage girls drunk and have sex with them is perfectly find, but daring to criticize that is flame bait?

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #208)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:01 AM

299. I'm sure you'll find

No evidence of me supporting any thread talking about "getting underage girls drunk and having sex with them.
Your manufactured outrage and misrepresentation is disgusting.

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Response to theKed (Reply #37)


Response to myrna minx (Reply #294)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:18 AM

302. +1

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Response to justiceischeap (Reply #22)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:18 PM

115. Wow

The popcorn smilie should only be used in emergency circumstances but...I'll let it pass this time.


Indeed


Wonder if this will be alerted on too. #thoughtpolice

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Response to theKed (Reply #4)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:49 PM

153. +1

This whole thread is bullshit character assassination against Ms. March. Sometimes I get the feeling that DU and Free Republic are different sides of the same coin. If you can't attack the message, attack the messenger.

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Response to LTR (Reply #153)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:27 PM

216. When someone publishes a column

She invites discussion of it. You don't need to be a freeper to think rape is wrong, and Democrats aren't immune from committing rape.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #216)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:49 PM

239. But people are picking her apart, rather than the article

And I have interacted with Anna March on a personal level, and she's more genuine than many of the self-righteous narcissists here who are trashing her rather than the article.

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Response to LTR (Reply #239)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:02 AM

290. no. they are picking apart her offensively hurtful and problematic article justifying, excusing rape

and you coming on du, and calling anyone who challenges what she states to be facts as self righteous narcissists is personal attacks. only those without argument or are lazy resort to name calling. point out where you have an issue with what is being said in this thread or the OP. you fail to do the very basics of proving a point you feel is important. why? is there was such an issue, it should be easy for yout o challenge, the challenge. you do not do that. you call people names.

that is not what happened in this thread. not name calling. but CHALLENGING her excusing, justifying, minimizing rape.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #290)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:10 PM

332. Believe me, if I wanted to insult you personally...

...I could come up with something better than "self-righteous narcissist". I can think of a few select words already, but let me just say that you need to seriously lighten up, rather than take offense at anything you don't agree with.

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Response to LTR (Reply #332)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:55 PM

376. no. you did personally insult. and you try to take it further. but, lack ownership.

sounding like a tough guy, i could do much worse, sheeeesh. what? middle school?

and no, i do not need to lighten up and i will discuss issue when i deem, not becuase you give me permission or not.

all you need do is not participate in the thread. or if you do, then expect to be challenged when throwing out garbage.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #376)

Tue Mar 26, 2013, 03:05 AM

409. Sounds like you're taking more offense than I am

And I never insulted you directly. At all. Unless you really are a self-righteous narcissist. I try to defend the author against some nasty character assassination and suddenly people start attacking ME.

And no, I'm not trying to act like a mach tough guy. Far from it. In fact, I make it a point to only say things online that I would say directly to a person's face. I don't believe in all that passive-aggressive internet bullshit.

Seriously, if my opinions truly do offend you, you don't need a message board, you need therapy. Quit blaming it on me.

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Response to LTR (Reply #409)

Tue Mar 26, 2013, 07:54 AM

412. you cannot actually argue what is being said on here so your defense of the author fails

because your only defense is about the posters you disagree with, not what is being said

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Response to LTR (Reply #409)

Tue Mar 26, 2013, 09:52 AM

415. "You need therapy" - in a thread about rape.

That nasty insult is shitty anywhere.

In a thread like this, it is fucking disgusting. Be proud.

And thanks for showing us all your true colors.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #415)

Tue Mar 26, 2013, 11:51 AM

417. +1

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Response to LTR (Reply #239)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:18 PM

334. No, people are picking apart what she publishes. And "narcissists"?

Please.

No one here has been so rude as to label her that way, but you feel free to do so to people here. Be proud.

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Response to theKed (Reply #4)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:51 AM

288. you must have

missed this lesson on your way into a cave

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125517989

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:59 AM

9. ...what happened in Steubenville, with Natalia on “Girls,” and with me... all rape is ridiculous.

i still say, this line speaks for the whole piece. a continuous blurring the line about rape.

as i said in that other thread. thank you for breaking it down. most of the article was troublesome and seemed to only be about telling a victim to accept rape and feel sorry for the rapist.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #9)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:13 PM

26. Troublesome is putting it so very lightly...

it was vile. Shocking, disgusting, rape-culture-enabling bullshit trumpeted as a "feminist" effort to reclaim agency.

Orwellian in the extreme.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #26)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:17 PM

31. yes. and the hyperbole from duers accusing others of outrage with all the trash

and garbage we are expected, demanded to consume, because they like wallowing in that trash.

yes. troublesome is very mild.

as others on this thread while reading about heart breaking pain, will much on some god damn popcorn to be entertained by that sorrow.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #31)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:20 PM

34. Oh not just entertained,

You might be shocked at the numbers of men who read stuff like this and jerk off.

IT Officer in Afghanistan several years ago, confided biggest part of his job was cleaning kiddie porn off the computers before they were brought back stateside.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #34)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:31 PM

49. yes. i get it. SOME men get off on the pain that it causes. it is after all how they define their

masculinity.

character, intergrity, means nothing.

sexual power over another is what a man is.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #49)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:40 PM

61. +1

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #34)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:55 PM

128. I have been reading a bit about that too.

and in another thread I mention that Watching that stuff doesn't make you want to go out and be a pedophile and assault kids but it is a symptom of desensitization where in order to 'feel' or react in some way when the 'tamer' stuff doesn't do it, then you have to ratchet it up, keep ratcheting it up until it gets to the ultimate sick shit possible because a piece of your human soul is missing and in order to 'feel' you have to be assaulted with the vilest things to have a reaction.

I was of course, laughed at for saying 'anyone who watches kiddie porn is a pedophile' then it kind of reduced to me saying 'anyone anywhere who watches any kind of porn is a sicko pedo' which I didn't say. But you know how this game works.

It always Protect the Wiener Week here.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #128)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:08 PM

132. yes you were. the porn lovers do not like to acknowledge that

it has to be ratcheted up to be able to get off. they like to pretend otherwise. though the porn creators speak out about this often and how they are running out of stuff to ratchet it up to.

but, i did take not of the drummin'. no desire to play with the characters going after you in that subthread. sorry. cowardly of me, lol

really, just so sick of the trash.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #128)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:51 PM

224. Your words

'this kind of porn is for those who have been desensitized to 'normal' porn and want to go a step further, and further to satisfy their sick needs.

they had to have started somewhere and I doubt highly that it was with this kind of sick shit right off the top."

"this kind of porn" is in reference to child porn which was what the OP was about.

So yes, you are saying people watch child porn because they have seen too much porn and are desensitized.
Unless you can back this drivel up with a study, then I call BULLSHIT.
You are definitely saying that watching too much porn leads to pedophilia.

Nice try at trying to change the intentions of your words.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #224)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:32 AM

273. don't you have better things for you to do, like stalk nadin?

I don't think I've ever heard you speak outside of critizing her.

at least you have a voice outside of your regular obsessions, I guess.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #273)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 11:57 AM

330. Aw.....you okay?

Did someone call you out on your bullshit?
This is GD, not some protected group where crap like asserting too much porn leads to pedophilia is met with "you go sister!"

Obviously, you know the assertion that too much porn can lead to pedophilia is bullshit or you wouldn't be so desperate to not address it when called out on it.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #330)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:25 PM

336. like you saying that there is no such thing as kiddie porn?

that it's all in our imaginations, us who want to take all your gunz and pronz away?

maybe if I repeat that lie, like you are repeating yours, it might get some traction. why not, that's how things are done is this town lately.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #336)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:24 PM

344. Nope.

Again, nice deflection.
Personal attacks didn't work, so now you try putting words in my mouth?

I say there is no link between too much porn and pedophilia.
You say there is...and that is bullshit.

If it wasn't, you wouldn't be running away from your assertion.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #344)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:35 PM

347. nope deux.

I say there is no link between too much porn and pedophilia.
You say there is...and that is bullshit.


Nope, I said that viewing kiddie porn does not mean you have to be a pedophile but that some are always looking for the next higher fix, and might end up watching kiddie porn to get that needed fix for gross. Are you then saying that pedophiles are making kiddie porn to sell to other pedos only and there is no other market for it?

but I already said this a couple times and you have your fingers in your ears. also, you are really boring me about this.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #347)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:39 PM

349. Yes, change what you said.

Your words...

"this kind of porn is for those who have been desensitized to 'normal' porn and want to go a step further, and further to satisfy their sick needs.

they had to have started somewhere and I doubt highly that it was with this kind of sick shit right off the top."

"this kind of porn" is in reference to child porn which was what the OP was about.

So yes, you are saying people watch child porn because they have seen too much porn and are desensitized.

What a load of bullshit.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #349)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:43 PM

351. thats not bullshit, but Im wondering how You know what every porn watcher thinks.

and what road they will end up on?

you seem to be very knowledgeable about the inner minds of porn watchers. What are your credentials that you can be so 'professionally assured' of your opinions?

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Response to Whisp (Reply #351)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:45 PM

353. Where's your link?

Surely there must be a study linking watching too much porn to pedophilia?
Please provide the link to that study.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #353)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:51 PM

355. well at least you got yourself another obsession

following me around and claiming things I didn't say, but what your mind thinks it hears.

find your own research, I'm not your school marm and I have nothing to prove to you.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #355)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:01 PM

356. LOL!

Well, I guess we agree your statement is bullshit, so there's that.

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Response to zappaman (Reply #356)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:21 PM

359. you probably think you are very good and clever about this.

but you're not.

now that deserves a hearty

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Response to Whisp (Reply #359)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:31 PM

363. Clever?

I don't think calling out your bullshit assertions is clever, but thanks for the compliment!
Here's what really deserves a though...

The idea, promoted by you, that too much porn leads to pedophilia!


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Response to Whisp (Reply #351)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:55 PM

375. You seem to be the one suggesting you know what every porn watcher thinks...

as you are the one suggesting that porn watchers eventually turn to kiddy porn. So please tell us what makes you so knowledgeable about the inner minds of porn watchers. Either that or you could bolster your case by providing something in terms of a scientific study, but we know that's not going to happen. But so long as you feel very strongly that you're right...

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Response to Whisp (Reply #347)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:52 PM

373. Your words were already posted.

And now you're running away from them. You might find you get more respect if you actually admit to the things you've obviously said and not attack people for pointing out your inconsistencies.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #336)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 01:44 PM

352. trying to conflate adult porn with underage shit is like trying to conflate adult sex w/child abuse

or adult gay sex with pedophilia.

It's ludicrous, but that doesn't stop would-be moral crusaders with an agenda from trying to conflate them.

They're totally different things, and it's an obvious, flailing act of desperation on the part of the people who can't string together a coherent moral argument against the consenting adult stuff beyond "we don't like it"

(or, more often than not, "I told my husband 3 times to stop looking at it and yet I keep finding it on the computer" ... )

Anything involving anyone under 18 is very illegal, and rightfully so. But the assertion that the 95% or so of humans who, at one time or another, like to look at pictures or films other adults either naked or having sex, are somehow dancing down the yellow brick road towards child abuse- it's absurd, and it's not borne out by any actual evidence. Instead, the places where we have seen entrenched communities and enabling of things like child abuse are places like the Vatican--- Hardly adult porn central.

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #34)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 06:07 PM

197. The sheer level of sadism in some people just astonishes me.

Makes me not even want to be part of the same species as them.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:02 PM

10. I'm the one who posted it

and I posted it not because I agreed with the content, but because I think it highlights the fact that women's sexual agency is taken away in a lot of these discussions.

So she was molested. Does that mean that all of her agency is gone?

So she was drunk. Does that mean that all of her agency is gone?

So she was 15. Does that mean that all of her agency is gone?

Etc. etc. etc.

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Response to XemaSab (Reply #10)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:04 PM

13. I didn't assume you agreed with it... but I do disagree with you about women's (or girls')

sexual agency being taken away.

I don't think any girls are women feel that they are being told they can't have sex, or enjoy sex, or that they have to believe they were raped if they don't think they were.

I wonder exactly how many women (and girls, because 15 you are still a girl) actually feel that way.

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Response to XemaSab (Reply #10)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 07:30 PM

217. that she was drunk and underage

makes it illegal to have sex with her period. So what's the age cut off for your agency argument, or is there any?

Rape and sexual agency have nothing to do with each other. Rape is a denial of that agency. I find your whole argument unfathomable.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #217)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 09:27 PM

246. The age of consent is 16 in several states

There's a world of difference between being 15 and deciding to have sex and being 12 and deciding to have sex. That being said, there were 12 year olds in my middle school having sex.

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Response to XemaSab (Reply #246)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 09:31 PM

247. and 12 year olds are raped

and this girl was under the age of consent, which is also rape. It is the opposite of sexual agency. Sexual agency is a person choosing to have sex. If she cannot consent due to force, age, or intoxication, there is no agency.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:02 PM

11. Perhaps the author was writing about herself, rather than to your specifications

Perhaps not everyone on this planet thinks that everything they say about their own lives needs to be run by you for approval based on whether you think it is "helping."

Perhaps you were not appointed by god to sit in judgment of other people's life stories and tell them what they should think and say about their own lives, because you know better than they.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #11)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:08 PM

19. perhaps reading comprehension means little and agenda takes precedent.

it is clear thru out the piece she is taking it beyond personal experience to society as a whole.

so, perhaps you post is nothing more than an insulting jab at redq

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #11)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:21 PM

35. Yep. These kinds of attacks do damage to those of us that care about rape as an issue.

 

Some people want too broad of a definition of rape. Two consenting adults acting out fetishes is NOT rape. Two boys having sex with a girl and her having regrets later is NOT rape. Having drunken sex is a mistake for both parties a lot of times, but is usually NOT rape unless the victim is passed out or was slipped something against their will.

Then others seem to want to perpetuate the troubling rape culture we already have by protecting the popular football players and further victimization of the victim in the courtroom.

I wish we could tackle an issue in America without the nonsense.

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Response to Generation_Why (Reply #35)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:33 PM

52. another derail. tell women how if they speak out, you, a man, will no longer be able to support her

you have been quite consistent in your anti feminist posts in the very small amount of time you have been on du.

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Response to Generation_Why (Reply #35)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:36 PM

54. Oh really? This "attack" does damage how?

What does damage is bullshit that claims women consider bad sex to be rape.



Welcome to DU.

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #11)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:24 PM

39. no, she wasn't just writing about herself..

"The idea that what happened in Steubenville, with Natalia on “Girls,” and with me in the park 30 years ago are all rape is ridiculous. "



maybe you should have read the article before snarking

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #11)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:49 PM

75. Perhaps if you read it, you'd note she talked about more than herself

such as the part that was quoted and specifically referred to CNN.....

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #11)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:21 PM

119. +1000

exactly

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Response to LittleBlue (Reply #119)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:25 PM

121. you have yet to miss a thread that you cant dismiss women. nt

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Response to cthulu2016 (Reply #11)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:54 PM

240. +1

Nice to see the occasional voice of reason on a thread like this.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:05 PM

15. Thanks rq

I did not have the energy to tackle that particular steaming load of shit

I have had bad sex and sex I regretted later on

I have also been raped

And I am crystal fucking clear about which was which

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:08 PM

20. Me too, MadrasT. +1

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #20)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:13 PM

27. *

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:13 PM

28. I'd like to say it was my pleasure... but it really wasn't. At all.

And yeah, I have no trouble at all discerning bad sex, or sex I regretted, with rape. NONE.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #28)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:18 PM

32. this is just another of the insults on du. being told that we are to continually address and educate

with a callousness from lack of understanding that for us, it is not entertaining or easy addressing this issue time and fuckin time and fuckin time again. that each time we have to "educate" it draw blood. makes us sick. over and over again.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #32)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:55 PM

92. Which is just another example of why rape culture and the patriarchy are so successful...

there are so many mechanisms that protect it, and keep it functioning, and keep it hidden.

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:54 PM

89. Thank you. Succinctly said.

Like women are supposed to be so dense they don't know the difference.

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:25 PM

122. +++++++

! absolutely right on target

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 09:02 PM

244. That's what I call a crystal clear testament. nt

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #15)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:31 AM

304. Yep.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:06 PM

16. Excellent analysis

How could she equate her rapist father with a first lover? Very sad.

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Response to rusty fender (Reply #16)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:43 PM

66. Thank you.

It is very sad.

Another sad part is that some editor at Salon found it to be something worthy of publication on their site.

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Response to rusty fender (Reply #16)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 09:00 PM

243. That "first lover" line actually made me nauseous nt

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:08 PM

18. Some people choose to express themselves in a way that's not suitable to other's agendas...

 

It takes a lot of courage to open up like that.

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Response to Generation_Why (Reply #18)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:10 PM

23. the point you and others miss. she is directing it to society, to women, to girls and to rapists...

if she merely talked about her experience then you may sorta have a point. where your obtuseness is damaging is that you refuse to acknowledge the author went beyond personal experience.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #23)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:12 PM

25. +1

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #23)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:25 PM

44. Spot on.

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Response to Generation_Why (Reply #18)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:26 PM

45. about the same amount of courage that clarence thomas has on issues

pertaining to african americans

which is to say none at all. when you agree with more powerful people about the oppression that effects less powerful people, you are not being brave

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #45)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:27 PM

46. +1

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #45)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:52 PM

86. Truth! Very telling she admits to problems seeking attention and approval

From men throughout her adult life as a result of her sexual abuse as a child.

But she doesn't admit to that sad history here. That would give the reader a bit more context than she'd like.

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Response to La Lioness Priyanka (Reply #45)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 03:08 PM

155. Boom.

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Response to Generation_Why (Reply #18)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:52 PM

85. It takes a lot of confusion...

...to muddy the waters the way she did.

As I said in another post: I would not mind if her musings had been posted on her own personal blog. I would still have disagreed with her interpretation of events, but that is of course her prerogative. But to see it published in Salon? That is really bad. They are publishing the confused thinking of a troubled person and presenting it as lucid thinking on the issue of rape.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #85)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:57 PM

95. Like publishing an account from Hedda Nussbaum about

How the beatings weren't really abuse or wrong and in fact she kinda liked them and anyway it was her choice because she chose not to clean up the kitchen that day....and men will be men, it's just the way things are, you have to accept them....


"Stunning courage in truth telling! Other women need to learn from this and stop going to the police or hospital!"

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:16 PM

30. Just curious. In the 60s and 70s, "free love" was the ideal. How many people here

had sex that they did not really want to have with someone they were not really attracted to, because it felt like the appropriate or socially acceptable thing to do? In retrospect, are you angry? With the other person? With yourself? With society? Did you feel proud of yourself for putting another notch on your belt? Did you feel ashamed? Please include your gender if you reply.

I am female, and my dating period was very brief, since I met and married my husband while in college. While I slept with several men who wanted the sex more than I did, I have never thought of the experience as rape. It was more like "experience" in the Jimi Hendrix use of the word as in "are you experienced"? Did HIV change things? I was married and monogamous by the time HIV hit the scene, so STD was never something we had to worry about. We had birth control pills, so pregnancy was not a problem, either.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Reply #30)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:25 PM

41. Agreeing to sex that wasn't all that fun is not rape. Wanna know what rape is?

I could tell you in excruciating detail. Or you could read stories of women in Africa getting reconstructive surgery.

I know the difference between bad sex and rape. I bet most people do, too.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Reply #30)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:51 PM

81. Why are you asking this question?

What conclusions are you hoping to draw? I'm sure that a lot of us 60s and 70s women had tons of sex, some good, some bad, and some mostly boring. I know I did. None of that was rape. No, the time rape happened to me was crystal clear - drunk, beaten, called a bitch and a cunt, and anally raped as well. So, I know with absolute clarity which of my many experiences were just plain old bad/boring and which one wasn't. So again I ask you: what is your point?

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #81)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:57 PM

97. not to mention 60s ad 70s did not even have a word for date rape. was just the way it was.

didnt mean it wasnt rape. but, was not defined as rape.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #97)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:02 PM

105. Yeah, date rape is more of a 90s thing, I think.

What happened to me would not have been called rape back in the 70s. I was drunk and went out with him willingly, so really, what did I expect?

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #105)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:10 PM

113. And you were born female...

Those of us born with the disgusting gash instead of the glorious godpenis deserve whatever happens to us don'tcha know....

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #81)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:00 PM

100. Powerful!

I'm so sorry for what was done to you. Thank you for speaking out.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Reply #30)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:54 PM

90. It's up to you.

No one outside your brain can tell you if sex was rape or not. Because the key element of rape is consent, and we can't know if you really consented.

Your story seems to be you consented to sex, but kinda regret it. That doesn't sound like rape, but all I've got to go on is two sentences. Additional details could change that.

But fundamentally, it's up to you to decide if you were raped.

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Response to McCamy Taylor (Reply #30)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 04:18 PM

168. I don't see it that quite that way. Nothing is free, and that 'free love' had a price to pay

which was done mostly by women.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:25 PM

40. I wouldn't be as hard on her as you are being.

I see her as a rape victim attempting to rationalize what happened to her.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #40)


Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #40)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:33 PM

51. That could be a place to start but

she turns outward and wags her finger at everyone else.

I actually feel sorry for her.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #40)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:38 PM

56. it really is not even about her. it is about those on du that refuse to think maybe there may be an

issue with both her article and how she is defining rape for all women and girls, and are using it as a weapon to support rape apology on du and attack a group of women on du that are speaking out about this.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #56)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:46 PM

72. I think it's analogous to a battered wife blaming herself.

Of course a battered wife is not to blame for being battered, but I would not go around bitterly denouncing her statements as "utterly vile".

Oh and I agree, shame on anyone who uses this article to try to prove any kind of point, because it doesn't.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #72)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:59 PM

99. I don't know, Nye.

I agree with you to a point.

If she'd said this crap in an interview, or on her personal blog, or in an editorial about her own life, I wouldn't be half as harsh.

But she didn't. She is projecting this outward, and she is spreading a lot of rape-culture-enabling crap as if it was valuable.

If a woman wrote an editorial intended to spread the message that victims of domestic violence should not be called victims of domestic violence because they chose to stay with their abusers, I would be equally harsh.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #40)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:56 PM

93. If she was only discussing her situation, I'd agree

But she's not. She's saying we should all think like she does.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #93)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:03 PM

106. If some guy had written this stuff, I would be disgusted, would utterly condemn him,

and would agree 100% with the OP.

But in this case I give her somewhat of a pass as she is a victim herself. I cannot even begin to imagine what she went through and what she is feeling, but I am more inclined to view this as some kind of weird rationalization as opposed to an apologia for rapists.

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Response to Nye Bevan (Reply #106)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:06 PM

108. She's welcome to rationalize her own life all she wants.

When she says other women should use the same rationalization she is wrong, regardless of her experience.

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Response to jeff47 (Reply #93)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 06:36 AM

283. Isn't that what everyone in this thread is doing? And if they aren't doing that, then why is it

assumed she necessarily is saying we should all think as she does.

I think March accounts for variations pretty well. And her story, just like everyone else's, is HER story. We aren't children; we know other people have different experiences. But the point of telling a story, like this one and like those we see in this thread, is to learn about the differences and ALSO the similarities. There are stories that are widely different from one another and yet, since there are not absolutes, there can also be a few, perhaps even significant, similarities. Then there are stories that are almost completely similar and, yet again, because there are no absolutes, those stories might have a few, perhaps even significant, differences. And then there are all kind of other stories which have mixes of differences and similarities in different proportions to one another, from 50:50 to 10: 90 to 14:86 and everything in between, if we could actually count the differences and similarities.

My point is that any mature mind knows these things and that's WHY we tell each other our stories, so that the differences can be respected and the similarities shared and all of that makes each of us a bigger person than we are just by ourselves.

I admired March for telling her story, even if she did it somewhat imperfectly, because she tried to talk about something that IS a forbidden and TABOO subject, just look at the reaction she got, and that's the fact that it is possible for and some women do in fact either make a mistake or lie about rape. It would be a near statistical impossibility for that not to be true and I don't think one bit of what she said negates rape in any way whatsoever. I think it elevates rape to something that is so very deeply and profoundly important that we as women would never even risk being wrong about it.

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Response to patrice (Reply #283)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 09:48 AM

305. She's not telling her story

She's telling her story in order to rip down someone else's story.

that's the fact that it is possible for and some women do in fact either make a mistake or lie about rape.

Um, no it's not.

Rape is about consent. If she feels like she did not give consent, she was raped. There is no grey area.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:25 PM

43. k and r--thank you, redqueen I did not have the strength to get through that mess.

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Response to niyad (Reply #43)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:37 PM

55. It wasn't easy.

And I'm glad I could help.

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Response to niyad (Reply #43)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:44 PM

69. I agree, thank you RQ. I know it wasn't easy.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:29 PM

47. Thanks redqueen. I finished the other thread, got called away before I could respond

to this (duplicate) post on that thread.

And now I see you made it an OP and I don't have to kick that mess in order to respond.

Another underlying point she appears to be making is that there's a lot of unfounded charges of rape by women in our society.

Which of course we know isn't the truth and perpetuates a meme that somehow women who actually press charges should be viewed with skepticism.



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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #47)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:38 PM

57. Yes, her catapulting that propaganda to make a buck...

so vile. So very utterly vile.

I'm glad you found this OP worthwhile. Seeing it referred to as a "vanity thread" ... ugh. Some people just don't have the slightest glimmer of understanding.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #57)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:49 PM

77. Thanks for this OP rq

and for your willingness to stick your hand in the meat grinder once again.

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #77)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:52 PM

83. LOL... thank you...

you made me laugh with that "meat grinder" comment... so true, so true.

I'm glad you found it helpful.

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Response to DURHAM D (Reply #77)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:00 PM

101. your willingness to stick your hand in the meat grinder once again.

this.

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Response to riderinthestorm (Reply #47)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:45 PM

70. +1

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:40 PM

60. I agree, Redqueen and the entire piece sadly reminds me...

of those very insecure teen girls, who would allow themselves to be disparaged, derided, ridiculed and worse by the "popular" boys in school--in some desperate hope of being accepted. Many of these undoubtedly grew up and with support, developed healthy self-image and relationships... but others undoubtedly were those who entered into abusive relationships in a continuing pattern.

When these women try to speak for ALL isn't simply disingenuous... it is far worse than that. And those who would point to such comments and attitudes to try to justify a larger agenda are beyond despicable, IMO.

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Response to hlthe2b (Reply #60)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:47 PM

74. It is far, far worse. Because in rape culture, their voices are amplified exponentially.

I think Reviving Ophelia should be required reading in every 6th grade class. Seriously.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:41 PM

62. thanks for not giving up and just keep plugging away, redqueen.

I want to take a shower after reading some shit here.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #62)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:49 PM

76. Thanks, Whisp.

It can be so triggering, and so hard not to reply based in emotion. But if you do that, that will be used as an excuse to dismiss what you say, and refuse to examine the content of your message.

It's going to be a long fight but I am sure not giving up.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #76)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:52 PM

84. Thank you.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:41 PM

63. Thanks for taking the time to do this...

...I really couldn't have done it because it angered me too much.

It's not that I don't want to hear conflicting views on things. Certainly in many societies historically, girls of 15 are considered to be of age. Certainly we are sexual beings and sexual desires begin long before we are legally of age. There are many complications, and the "close in age" laws are meant to address some of this complexity, and that is overall a good thing IMO.

But this person clearly has boundary issues. The fact that Salon would run this piece is infuriating. Let her put it on her blog if she has one; but to give it the imprimatur of a respected magazine, good grief. It surely does muddy the waters when we discuss issues of sexuality and rape.

She seems to be one of those contrarians, who will take extreme positions just to see if it will make people's heads explode. If that was her aim, it certainly worked on me.

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #63)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:51 PM

80. +++

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #63)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:51 PM

82. Yes, it's easy to see that she might have been just writing shit to get clicks.

She is getting paid after all.

But you're right, her age at the time or her state of mind are great fodder for her biography or for editorials about her life and thoughts... but projecting that outward, and catapulting pro-rape-culture propaganda at the same time?

That is just wrong. Full stop.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 12:50 PM

78. K&R Thank you for taking the time to do this very unpleasant task. n/t

 

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #78)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:01 PM

102. Thank you.

I'm glad you found it worthwhile.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #102)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:01 AM

285. Now that a day has passed, I feel even more grateful to you.

 

exposing the ugly side of DUmerica while subjecting yourself to this is certainly above and beyond.

Some of the replies here are just un-fucking-believable.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #285)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 07:33 AM

287. I agree 100%.

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Response to Egalitarian Thug (Reply #285)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:31 AM

317. Thank you again..

My intent was simply to state clearly why the thing was so beyond horrible.

I knew I wasn't the only person who reacted to it so strongly, and it was important to me to make these objections 'loudly' by starting a new thread.

It is very good to know it was appreciated by so many. I didn't expect that.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:15 PM

114. MRA?

What's that mean?

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Response to progressoid (Reply #114)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:18 PM

117. Men's Rights Activist

Here's an example of their handiwork. Mocking a successful campaign to reduce rape in Canada in order to push their rape-culture-enabling lies.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #117)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:29 PM

123. Ugh.

That's pretty awful.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #117)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 09:18 PM

245. That is shocking. "Don't be THAT girl."

Good gods almighty -- that's a trigger for me if ever I saw one. Just kind of takes my breath away -- which, after all, is the point. To take women's breath away, to take their voices away, to make them shut up for all time.

Y'know, I never was "that girl." I was a super-compliant teenager and such a good girl that if I had a dollar for every time some guy accused me of having a poker up my back I could have paid my way through college.

And I know full well why I chose to be so "good." Somewhere deep inside was a young girl who believed with all her heart that if she was good enough, nothing bad would ever happen to her again.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #117)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 10:45 AM

323. That's appalling. I'm speechless.

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Response to myrna minx (Reply #323)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:33 PM

339. What makes me ill is knowing there are people here who agree with it.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:18 PM

116. Wonderful OP,redqueen.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #116)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:19 PM

118. Thank you, sufrommich.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:34 PM

124. Thanks for doing this OP

It keeps the discussion going which is very important. Assholes can roll their eyes all they want. In the original article the 'spreading her legs' part raised a giant flag for me and I didn't bother to click on the link. I came away thinking that the author is a confused woman who lives in constant shame. I found myself hoping she will deal with it someday.

Her assumption that bad sex is equated with rape is proof she's confused.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #124)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:28 PM

174. Thank you.

That 'spreading her legs' part was alarming indeed.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:49 PM

126. nitpicking and cherry picking, eh?

this line kinda struck me "a culture in which young women are conditioned from birth to see their worth and value in their looks and sexual desirability"

makes me wonder - How are young men taught to see their worth and value?

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #126)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:16 PM

139. sexual awesomeness and wallet. see, not hard. and rather useless. not to mention the damage it

causes not only all of us, but men themselves.

oh, and this is an op talking about women and their issues.

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #126)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:16 PM

140. success in terms of money, career and power

would be my best guesses

i am not saying that kind of narrow focus is good for men just what i think is inculcated into little boys early on

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Response to hfojvt (Reply #126)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:31 PM

175. Go start a thread about that and find out.

I am not interested in engaging in your DEAR GOD WHATABOUTTHEMENZing in this one.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:54 PM

127. I think it very brave of you to take this on, at so many levels.

And I thank you for doing something that needed done but that many couldn't, wouldn't or are incapable of doing.

It is obvious this girl is very misguided and had a very traumatic life. I guess one thing I see that is scary is, everyone is a teacher, whether they know it or not. And she is a very misguided teacher, and I feel sorry for those learn from her, especially any of her children. Or other children for that matter. She just perpetuates her wrong thinking.

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Response to timdog44 (Reply #127)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:34 PM

178. Thank you. And you are so very, very right..

I guess one thing I see that is scary is, everyone is a teacher, whether they know it or not. And she is a very misguided teacher, and I feel sorry for those learn from her, especially any of her children. Or other children for that matter. She just perpetuates her wrong thinking.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 01:58 PM

129. So let me get this straight

 

I actually had to go through the bother of creating an account here I was so disturbed by this thread.

A woman posts an eloquent, well written, deeply personal story on the Internet about her sexual experiences, explicitly and unequivocally stating that she was not raped, and you, having never met her or even spoken to her, respond with a 1119 word "analysis" of her writing stating that she was raped.

Excuse me if I take her word over yours. You do a disservice to rape victims everywhere with this thread. Shame on you.

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Response to Rajesh (Reply #129)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:10 PM

136. You seem to have completely misunderstood the entire subject.

It might be best if you go back to lurking instead of making your first post an attack against a poster on a such a sensitive issue.

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Response to Rajesh (Reply #129)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:18 PM

141. OMG you poor thing...

...you had to go to the trouble of creating an account here? Wow, now that is real suffering!

You perhaps did not read that the author of this "eloquent, well written deeply personal story" neglected to mention her own very relevant history of being sexually abused by her own father. Oh, but he was her "first lover", she says. She obviously has a better sense of nuance than us strident feminists, eh?

She states that she was not raped when she drunkenly agreed to a threesome with two 19-year-olds, even though she was only 15 and was drunk for the first time. Well, it is certainly her prerogative to decide how she views that occurrence. But she is arguing that others should make that same judgment, that it was just "bad sex". IOW, if another 15-year-old gets drunk for the first time and is taken advantage of by two 19-year-old boys, she should just STFU and live with it. That is what she is arguing: that if a young teenage girl has exercised bad judgment and a couple of older boys (men by law) decide to take advantage, that is her fault.

Excuse me but I find that attitude wrong on so many levels. I believe this author is very misguided and confused about the issue of rape, and the fact that Salon would publish this tripe is outrageous. It continues to muddy the waters rather than shedding light, and it continues to blame the victim.

Perhaps you should examine your own attitudes. You actually went to all the trouble to create an account here just so you could wag your finger at those of us who found the article offensive? Well excuse me while I

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Response to ljm2002 (Reply #141)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 04:50 PM

170. It is safe to assume

that this poster was not creating their first (and only) account on DU.

Calling MIRT...

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Response to Rajesh (Reply #129)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:19 PM

142. reading comprehension is your friend. to go to all that bother and frame your issue so poorly

wont accomplish a whole hell of a lot.

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Response to Rajesh (Reply #129)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:21 PM

143. Well bless yer li'l heart. n/t

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Response to Rajesh (Reply #129)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:30 PM

145. its not her personal story when she extrapolates from herself to others

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Response to Rajesh (Reply #129)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:31 PM

146. Did you even read redqueen's OP? She explicitly does NOT say that

Her OP is about how the Salon piece perpetuates the rape culture we have in this country.

Which part of this didn't you understand?

"So she didn't feel like she was raped, big fucking deal! A whole hell of a lot of women who first had sex at 15 don't feel like they were raped. A whole hell lot of a women who first had sex at 12 don't feel like they were raped either. No one is out there telling women that they have to feel that they were raped if they don't feel that way. Because if they don't, that's their prerogative.

No, what's important is reaching the tens of thousands of women each year who do feel that they were raped. What is important is reaching the women who do feel that they were raped but who still aren't reporting it. And what this person is doing is not fucking helping.

No, what she is doing is playing into the hands of MRAs and victim blamers who want to silence women."

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Response to Rajesh (Reply #129)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:35 PM

149. Wow. Really?

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Response to Rajesh (Reply #129)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 03:24 PM

158. OMG you poor thing!

The trouble you've gone to, just to educate us womens. Here, come sit down and I'll bring you a nice cup of tea and you can tell me all about your heinous trauma. You must be exhausted.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #158)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 11:22 AM

328. lol!



thanks for a much needed belly laugh, Sheldon Cooper.

bawhahahahahahah!

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Response to Rajesh (Reply #129)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:59 PM

242. Very well put

And since none of these hotheads will do it, I'd like to take this opportunity to welcome you to DU, and thank you for your insightful input.

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Response to LTR (Reply #242)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:08 AM

291. more insults? not an ability to actually address what you disagree with. just lazy insults?

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #291)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:03 PM

331. Okay, so you take offense at me using terms like "hotheads"

...yet you stalk me to throw some hostile attacks at me. Get a grip.

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Response to LTR (Reply #331)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 02:59 PM

377. You get a grip

 

you are the one who needs to.

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Response to LTR (Reply #331)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:02 PM

379. lol. now i am a stalker. you good. i do not think there is a post, without personal attack. nt

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Response to Rajesh (Reply #129)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:51 AM

280. +1

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Response to patrice (Reply #280)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:16 AM

292. post 248

and going with your post above that you wrote. i have an issue with that not cause i do not want to take away from personal story. i too have my own and my way of dealing with it is not in anyway most would see it. but, it is my way. i would never suggest how i processed it is a manner others should. but, post 248 says a lot about this. a person that at such a young age was violated is going to mess up the message in an unhealthy way. that is simply the reality of it. we can listen to what is being said. but, not all things are right, even if we "feel" or interpret it to be, because experience has allowed our minds to make it so.

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Response to patrice (Reply #280)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 12:14 PM

333. Wow. Really? That guy didn't even understand the OP, and said "shame on you"...

And you're giving that a +1?

Really?

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Response to Rajesh (Reply #129)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 05:15 PM

405. Wow. Way to miss the point completely.

Go away. And shame on YOU for not learning reading comprehension skills.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:09 PM

134. This thread has had the effect of lansing a boil for me.

Sometimes things are buried so deep in our cells and tissues that we can't really get at them altogether, mentally or emotionally. Thanks to everyone who has shared on this thread. I'm sitting here in tears.

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Response to loudsue (Reply #134)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:11 PM

137. ...

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Response to loudsue (Reply #134)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:14 PM

138. ((((Gentle hugs))))

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Response to LiberalLoner (Reply #138)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 03:10 PM

156. Thank you.

For the hug and for your posts.

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Response to loudsue (Reply #134)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 03:28 PM

160. It is a tearful thread.

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Response to loudsue (Reply #134)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:40 PM

182. I'm glad it helped.

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Response to loudsue (Reply #134)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 06:47 PM

204. I cried too

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Response to loudsue (Reply #134)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 08:53 AM

296. Me too.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:30 PM

144. Excellent! Her article reminds me of the BS

hardcore RW women spout in defense of the misogyny of their party, their church, and the men in their lives.

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Response to tblue37 (Reply #144)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:43 PM

184. Yeah, that's where we're used to hearing such victim-blaming stuff.

The crap about "blaming alcohol and drugs" and "calling bad sex or sex you regret rape"... ugh.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:32 PM

147. Redqueen

Thinking of Persephone again, Hekate thanks you.

It is an outrage when the abused excuses her abuser. It is an outrage when the slave kisses the master's hand. It is an outrage.

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Response to Hekate (Reply #147)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:44 PM

185. Thank you, Hekate.

It truly is an outrage, a very sad one.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:34 PM

148. I agree.

Thanks for sharing.

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Response to Apophis (Reply #148)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:45 PM

186. Thank you. nt

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 02:39 PM

151. Agreed. And who are the fuckers at Salon that thought it was a good idea to post this on their site

Geez.

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Response to Evoman (Reply #151)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 04:22 PM

169. the same kind of fuckers that are defending Poppy Harlow and CNN

and the same kind of fuckers that want to 'probe' before abortions and want to re-define what rape is and how bodies work.

It's all over the god damned place and if we show how angry we get, why it's just us emotional womenz getting all outraged again over pretty well nothing and our only goal is to take awayz the pron. This is all a set up.

jayzuz.

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Response to Evoman (Reply #151)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:48 PM

188. Thanks. I wrote to Salon and expressed my disgust.

That red S will be associated with this triggering crap for a long time. (Well, not this triggering crap, the "Daddy" triggering crap.)

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 03:37 PM

161. Agree on all points but the slander of the BDSM community

The OP clearly knows damn-all on that topic, to throw out such a canard.

Apart from that, a great post.

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Response to riqster (Reply #161)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:36 PM

179. I wondered about that part too

Redqueen is awesome, but I question that particular point. I see no reason why rape should be more common in the BDSM community. Rape is defined by the absence of consent, not the type of sex one engages in. I wonder if she has evidence to support her point.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #179)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:40 PM

181. i believe there is research that states it is a real issue, a community outcry there is an issue.

i have seen articles a couple 6 months ago? that discussed it. not an issue for me. i have enough on my plate without delving into that world. just do not need that sadness on top of everything else. but we have heard from some that participated in that world some of the issues, when there was a discussion.

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #181)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:43 PM

183. I suppose it's possible that predators are drawn

to that community thinking it will be easier to find victims.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #183)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:47 PM

187. that would have been the point in the article and how important it was to police the community and

listen to the people (generally women) that are being abused. it was from a member of the community just wanting to address a very real problematic issue.

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Response to riqster (Reply #161)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:55 PM

189. I was referring to various reports from people in the scene.

So no, it isn't slander or a canard. It is a serious problem.
http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2013/01/22/one-in-three-kinksters-reports-a-consent-violations/

The last time I mentioned this I had people jumping down my throat for all kinds of nonsensical reasons. Hopefully that won't happen again.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #189)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 06:03 PM

192. The most obvious response to that...

The questions posed referred to pre-negotiations of "scenes"... While some scenes are sexual, many are not even remotely sexual. So, disregard for pre-negotiated limits in non-sexual scenes are certainly problematic, but to lump them under the umbrella of "rape" is breathtakingly asinine.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #189)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 11:23 PM

252. If you are going to say "even more often", you should have proper citations to prove it

Otherwise, you are ruining an otherwise fact-based OP.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 03:39 PM

162. Saw that thread, horrible.

Bad sex is bad sex, good sex is good sex...rape IS rape. To compare having consensual sex to some gray area that could be rape is horrible. Rape IS rape; why do so many not understand the difference between having sex and being raped? I kinda find it mind-boggling and disturbing.

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Response to Rex (Reply #162)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:38 PM

180. I hope the confused listen to you on this point

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #180)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:23 PM

390. I just will never buy what is being sold.

Rape IS rape. HAVING sex...BEING raped. I've been trying to think how to visualize it by analogy. I think I've come up with a simple image that anyone can understand;

SEX - is like opening your front door, greeting someone and letting them come inside.

RAPE - is like someone kicking your door down, shooting you in the face and then blowing up your house.

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Response to Rex (Reply #162)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:58 PM

190. Oh I think people understand just fine.

And various people have various reasons for trying to blur it.

In her case, most likely to protect herself from having to admit that her first "lover" did more damage to her than she thinks. Her early promiscuity was acting out, not "exploring".

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Response to redqueen (Reply #190)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:20 PM

386. Anyone here on DU that is trying to blur the lines

doesn't belong here. Period. Last thing we need is rape enablers posting on this site.

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Response to Rex (Reply #386)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 03:42 PM

396. I've been accused of doing that.

For posting stuff like this:

http://radtransfem.wordpress.com/2012/01/10/under-duress-agency-power-and-consent-part-one-no/

http://radtransfem.wordpress.com/2012/01/23/under-duress-agency-power-and-consent-part-two-yes/

Everything I post about consent leads to MORE considerate treatment of the intricacies of human interaction, yet that same comment you made about not belonging at this site was directed at me, for those kinds of links.

Really makes one think.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #396)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 04:27 PM

401. That is so wrong.

You are one of the last persons on this planet I would think of when I think of that term! I believe you are being preyed upon by a select few that really want to shutdown these types of conversations.

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Response to Rex (Reply #401)

Mon Mar 25, 2013, 04:48 PM

402. +1

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 04:14 PM

167. If you have to explain how bad sex wasn't rape, it probably was...

If you have to say well I sort of agreed to having sex for the second time and I was drunk and well there were two guys and I really kind of sort of didn't want to then it was probably rape even if you don't want to see it that way.

Or if you say well I went to his house/apartment willingly and I sort of passed out and woke up with no pants/clothes on and I don't remember what happened and it wasn't violent so I wasn't raped it was just bad sex.

If his breath smells funky, or you just don't feel fresh or he slobbers a bit to much when kissing or he just can't quite last long enough or whatever it really was likely to just be bad sex, but we all knew that anyway.

The thing that really bothers me about the whole rape apologist article is the fact that the author had to go into her way back machine to dredge up an incident that sounds a whole lot like a date rape. I was thinking about this, it's been several years I am sure she's had a lot of bad sex the really just bad sex kind not the drunken coercive kind done in a park by someone around her age and someone much older otherwise known as rape kind. So, to me it is obvious she sees the parallels to what happened to her and what happened in Stubenville even if it wasn't quite as dramatic. But, she clearly seems to understand that alcohol was a factor. I think she really does understand that it was wrong. She does seem relieved that a small amount of justice at least was done in Stubenville. It's just odd that she sees all these parallels yet she insists that her rape wasn't a rape it was just bad sex.

I don't think there are a lot of 15 year olds that are going to consent to multiple partners in a public place when having sex for the second time. I could be wrong about that. I also don't think that people consent to multiple partners on the fly. I know it's possible to consent to that kind of thing, but it's usually something that is discussed before hand and not a spontaneous act, especially with someone that is very young. I could be wrong about that too, but I just don't see it as being typical of teen sex. I see teen sex as typically a one on one thing that is very clumsy and awkward at least for the inexperienced partner. And yeah that can be bad sex without being rape. But, in a park where alcohol is being consumed and with more than two people that just seems to be rape by definition.

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Response to Kalidurga (Reply #167)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 06:04 PM

194. When sexual molestation/abuse/RAPE is involved in a child's history...

such acting out (early promiscuity, group sex, etc.) is not rare.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #194)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 06:28 PM

203. I shouldn't be surprised...

Her story still sounds a lot more like rape and less about acting out. I think you are reading that the same way though. I still think it sounds a whole lot like she is over explaining what happened. When it's just bad sex it doesn't really require that much explanation people explain it and heads nod as if yep been there. Also she says that people she tells tell her it was rape and she says it wasn't. So, to me if it sounds like rape to a lot of people it very well could have been. She seems to leave some stuff out so I guess we won't ever know for sure if it was acting out or rape.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 04:53 PM

171. Thank you. I was flamed for stating that the OP wasn't responsible...

totally for her decisions at age 15. That SHE wasn't to blame, when having a tryst with TWO older males.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #171)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 06:06 PM

196. Thank you, I'm glad you find it helpful.

I wish I understood why people who had such a problem with what this woman wrote were attacked for it.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:31 PM

176. Taking advice on how to feel raped from someone sexually abused from the age of four

Last edited Mon Apr 22, 2013, 11:23 AM - Edit history (10)

is like taking advice on Catholicism from Madonna.

On edit: It also makes a mockery of Salon's journalistic standards that Marsh does not detail her early childhood sexual experiences or factor in how they might effect her current opinions. Surely it puts her most basic level of objectivity into question.

Either she's suffering the worst case of denial ever, or she's media whoring (if you'll pardon the expression) to draw attention to her upcoming book.


rocktivity

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Response to rocktivity (Reply #176)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 06:08 PM

198. It's heartbreaking, really. nt

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 05:31 PM

177. The girl in Steubenville didn't initially understand she was raped

that didn't mean she wasn't.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #177)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 06:10 PM

200. She didn't even remember...

it sounds like this woman remembered it... she just didn't consider it rape, for whatever reason.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 06:22 PM

202. Yeah, it's the idea that what the other person (usually female) wants doesn't matter.

And the idea that drunkenness, in itself, equals de facto consent. That about sums up the problem, for me.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #202)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:02 PM

229. It's an enormous problem.

And one that so far isn't being dealt with.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #229)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:38 PM

235. Yes.

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Response to redqueen (Original post)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 08:57 PM

241. "No one is out there telling women that they have to feel that they were raped" is a horrible line.

In full: "No one is out there telling women that they have to feel that they were raped if they don't feel that way."

This is the crux of the problem, defining it or allowing it to be defined by what somebody feels. They may not press charges, but their feelings are completely beside the point and even if they want to avoid the word "rape" they should acknowledge and admit that they were compelled to engage in sexual activity without due consent.

If their feelings matter, then the guy who "rapes" a woman who doesn't feel raped hasn't actually committed rape. Then when he goes and does the exact same thing with a woman who *does* feel raped, wham--it was okay before, consent was no more explicitly and voluntarily given than last time, and now it's illegal but before it wasn't? What's up with that?

As it is there are a bunch of different definitions for "rape," some legal and legally binding although they vary by jurisdiction; there are some in the activist literature that are different from the legal definitions; and yet others in current colloquial usage that disagree with the legal and activist sets. Yet, in typical scholarly and legal fashion, it's assumed that only one's accepted definition can possibly be used by anybody. And if they don't like it, tough--you'll impose it by sheer dint of will and intimidation.


Like it or not there'll never be a black-and-white, fine-grained definition. But we shouldn't fuzzy this horrendously varied set any more than absolutely necessary.

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Response to Igel (Reply #241)

Sun Mar 24, 2013, 09:37 PM

248. My friend Jennifer told me a story when we were both 13.

She told me this story while we were waiting for the older boys to arrive, with their friends along with them. We provided sex for whoever showed up. No matter if we were having our period and not feeling well...we knew the rules. We had to put out to any man who asked us. We knew our roles by heart. I certainly never entertained the idea, at 13, that I had the right to say "no." That's what child sexual abuse did to me.

Jennifer told me about her first time. She said she was ten and her 19 year old brother invited her up to the remote cabin the family owned, for the weekend.

Her brother and a bunch of his friends got her drunk then spent the rest of that weekend taking turns raping her.

"I was really scared and it hurt and I was crying but I am glad now it happened because now I'm not afraid to have sex."

I nodded. I understood exactly what she was saying. Then we serviced a half dozen older boys in the snow of a Montana winter night.

We both thought what happened to us was okay and normal. We thought servicing young men without regard for our own health and well being was normal and okay too.

FEELING something is okay and not a big deal does not necessarily make it so.

That was what was going through my head when I read her account of the events in the park.

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